Friday, March 23, 2012

Radicalized or not?

From THIS article on the Toulouse, France killings:

(to the left is very pretty 8 yr old Miriam Monsonego, the daughter of the principal of the Jewish school....the killer cornered her and put a gun to her head and shot)

"French president Nicolas Sarkozy called for unity in France Thursday following the dramatic shootout that killed Toulouse gunman Mohamed Merah after a 32-hour standoff. Merah, a 23-year-old Frenchman of Algerian descent, had admitted Wednesday to negotiators that he had killed three children and their teacher and three French paratroopers, prosecutors said. And indeed, they said they found videotapes he had made of the killings in his apartment.
But French officials were facing sharp questions in the wake of the Toulouse killing spree, in particular about why they had failed to close in on Merah earlier.
The 23-year-old Toulouse mechanic had traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan at least twice, most recently in 2011. He claimed to have trained in jihadi camps in Waziristan, according to French prosecutors Thursday, who said he had also proclaimed allegiance to al-Qaida. Merah was also well-known to Toulouse law enforcement, having been convicted on numerous nonterrorism related crimes, like purse snatching, for which he served a year in prison. Indeed, his attorney reportedly said this week that at their last meeting a couple months ago, he had advised Merah to be on his best behavior because he had recently returned from Afghanistan and would be on the police's radar. (Merah had been picked up for driving without a license.)
"That is one of the big questions people in France are asking coming out of this," Christophe Bauer, a producer at French broadcaster France 24, told Yahoo News Thursday. "There's a sense he just came back from Afghanistan. French officials said they had been tracking him. But what does that tracking mean? Apparently, the French intelligence services in Toulouse talked to him when he got back from Afghanistan."

I hadn't followed this closely and thought he'd gone into a Jewish school or something and started shooting but he apparently had these poor victims, including 3 children, in his apartment and videotaped their killings.  This is unspeakable horror that's hard to grapple with, isn't it."

SO...what do we do?  This is a perfect example of why so many in Western society are justifiably on guard of Muslims.  Yet, we hear so many remind us that not all Muslims are terrorists as if any of us thought that was a palm to forehead revelation?     Here we go:

-he is a Muslim
-he was in Afghanistan at least twice. (have we closed any of those camps down yet?)
-he was in Pakistan at least twice.
-he claims to have studied jihad in Waziristan
-he's proclaimed allegiance to Al Qaeda
-French intel had been tracking him, they'd spoken to him upon his return from Afghanistan.

SO:

-what can they ask during intel interrogation?
-how can you tell if someone's lying?  Think he'll tell the truth?
-had he sworn Al Qaeda allegiance at those encounters with French terrorism experts?
-are people afraid to do anything because he's a muslim?

Do you think we're any different than the French are?    Trust me, I lived there, and they can ask a LOT more than we can, and take steps our citizens would find go against our liberties.  And THEY MISSED IT.

Now we'll have liberals suggest he's a 'one off' nut..."there you go again blaming all Muslims..."

Do you see that there's nothing we can do?  Does anybody see why some Americans and Europeans say "We can't take any more in, they can't be trusted?"   How WILL we know enough to stop killings like this...or FAR FAR more awful?

What a hideous situation islam has put us in. Not US, them.  All of them?  Some of you think so.  I do not.  But, it doesn't matter.  One lone crazed muslim killed a little eight year old blonde girl  by shooting her in the head.   That's enough.

z

110 comments:

Dave Miller said...

When someone takes a gun and kills a bunch of innocent women and kids, that person is a terrorist, period.

For me, it does not matter what religion he, or she follows.

Unprovoked killing of innocent people is an act of terror aimed a scaring a population, pure and simple.

beakerkin said...

Unfortunately Dave the US has a policy of granting tenure to some of Ducky's soulmates. The difference between the killer in France and Ayers is that the latter
was incompetant.

Will we try Lori Berenson for her actions?

Sorry, but killing soldiers of the country you reside in is treason.

Ducky's here said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ducky's here said...

When someone takes a gun and kills a bunch of innocent women and kids, that person is a terrorist, period.

-------------
Of course in Beak's world Bales or Zimmerman don't count. They were justified in some way.

Of course the true reason they get a pass from Beak is that the victims were Muslim and black respectively, the extra people who need to be culled periodically.

Few drone strikes go wrong and kill some kids, well, you have to weed the garden once in a while.

But when a privileged class is the victim then rage becomes a necessity as well as vengeance.

But that's are condition. We are always selective about what we consider evil.

The Muslim kids would have grown up to be terrorists anyway.
Kid was wearing a hoodie.

Dave Miller said...

You are correct in that evil is in the eye of the beholder... I wish it were not true...

Always On Watch said...

Mohammed Merah killed cornered her and put a gun to her head and shot.

And he filmed his vile deed, too.

I wonder if he was planning to post videos of his vile deeds on the Internet?

Always On Watch said...

God help us. We may end up having our own Beslan or Toulouse here in America. I can't imagine that our national security can remain infallible in that regard. So many soft targets!

Silverfiddle said...

What do we do? Not let people in from these troubled lands. And if someone is here and they travel to one of those places, don't let them back in.

Z said...

Dave, it's terribly important that most people start to realize who's committing most of the world's terrorism, of course. The second half of my post explains why I posted this.


Beakerkin, thanks for explaining.

Ducky misses my point, too. Darn.

AOW...that's the part I don't get; would like to know how he filmed any of this and got it back to his apartment as the article says...
some confusion there.

Silverfiddle....it just seems like that HAS to be the answer. But, there are many who'd rather jeopardize us than stand up to the problem. it will be WE who suffer in the long run, because we weren't allowed to get tough.

sue hanes said...

Z - This was a complicated post for me to digest.

Are you saying - and questioning - that we should not trust ANY Muslims?

Are you saying that the sitution has become so complicated - so dangerous - that we must stop ANY Muslims - at any cost?

I read the link - and tried to grasp what you are getting at here - but would you just help me out a little?

Thanks Z.

(I do understand the seriousness and the HORRIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES HERE - and the problem that faces everyone when it comes to the Muslim community - I'm just not sure what you are looking for - and that is due to my inherent stupidity - Z. :[)

Z said...

Sue, I'm saying HOW DO WE TRUST when we have intel not able to add 2 and 2 and get 4(i.e. jihadist) and people who can lie so well the truth's just plain lost until the next attack and then comes out...right after another sweet little 8 yr old's shot in the head in utter horror or worse...we lose CLeveland. (he was in Afghanistan, he pleads allegiance to AQ), etc.

Of course not all muslims aren't to be trusted. To keep US SAFE (and that's more important to me than being politically correct), how do we discern?

SO, now what?

sue hanes said...

Z - Here are my thoughts on it - based on what you just said:

We have to mantain a level of trust - not in Them - but in ourselves.

That we have a system of surveillance - and interrogation -that works for us.

But two things that I Believe are -

~that we must be true to ourselves -and maintain our level of standards - so that we do not overreact - to a terrible event such as just occurred in France - and that we do not become 'like them'

~and that we DO NOT make the 'good Muslims' - and we know that they exist - suffer for what the bad ones do

surely we saw this happen in the case of the Japanese Internment Camps in WWII and of course there are Other - examples...

Chuck said...

One thing I will say is that the condemnation from the moderate Muslims around the world is deafening...

Also, I must have missed the film clips of the Jewish protesters rioting in the streets and murdering soldiers and civilians indiscriminately in retaliation.

Oh, wait, he didn't burn the Torah. Silly comparison.

Finally, I missed the leaders of Pakistan and Afghanistan polishing the ass of Sarkozy for training this dude. Don't they all take their cue from The One on these issues?

Brooke said...

AOW said:

"I wonder if he was planning to post videos of his vile deeds on the Internet?"

Of course, and they would NO doubt be a training/propaganda video for Islamists!

sue hanes said...

Chuck - awesome comment

Lisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lisa said...

It's like there is a pink elephant in the room and nobody pretends to notice,yet remember how quick the left and the media were to blame the Gabby Gifford's shooting on the Tea Party and Sarah Palin and kept up with it for weeks.
And when there was the Times Square car bomb Bloomberg was blaming the Tea Party because they were upset about Obamacare?
The problem with having a liberal media is they only get called out by Talk radio and they demonize talk radio to make people believe they are lying to them when it is the other way around and they hate that they can't carry the entire narrative.

Do you know how many people never even heard about the Fort Hood Shooting or who did it?
Never heard it on MSNBC, You had to watch FAUX News to hear about it.

Dave Miller said...

Thanks Lisa for somehow equating a health care act that you don't like with terrorism... incredible...

Chuck, are you saying that the absence of condemnation by other Muslims is evidence of agreement with what this man did?

Z, I too, even as a lib, struggle with a culture that has been, at least to some degree, radicalized and what our response should be...

It is a vexing problem here in the US as AOW pointed out...

Always On Watch said...

Get ready to puke! Merah posted the video of killing that little girl. The link I'm leaving does NOT go to the video but rather to information that he did indeed post the video.

Always On Watch said...

More to be disgusted about -- although certainly not as despicable as posting a video of murdering a child.

Impertinent said...

" They were justified in some way..."

I think you better brush up on Florida law before you start whining and weeping over someone who...who by all accounts attacked Zimmerman and was defending himself from a "kid"....who was suspended from school coming out of the hood in Miami. Plus he has a juvenile record that remains sealed.

( BTW...what's your spurious comment going to be on the 11...one a 6 year old girl... murders among 49 attacks in Chicago last week? Which Fat Al won't dare mention cause it's black on black? )

Of course all you prisoners of the commonwealth know that you're not trusted or allowed to carry arms or defend yourselves. That's ILLEGAL in Mass. This from a state that was a battleground for the Revolution that gave us that Bill of Rights. Now being denied to it's citizens.

Impertinent said...

"are you saying that the absence of condemnation by other Muslims is evidence of agreement with what this man did?"


It might be seen as empirical evidence that they indeed do.

Impertinent said...

"Kid was wearing a hoodie."


A red...hoodie. Gang colors down here and gang dress.

Chuck said...

Dave,

Chuck, are you saying that the absence of condemnation by other Muslims is evidence of agreement with what this man did?

No, I'm saying the continuous absence of condemnation by other Muslims is evidence of agreement with what this man, and others, did

Chuck said...

BTW, Impertinent nailed it with his remark about "fat Al" not mentioning the 11 people killed in Chicago last week. I was saying the same sort of thing to my wife this morning.

I don't know what happened in Florida, as none of us really do. I know what is happening in Florida though.

-the usual cockroaches are coming out of he woodwork to jump in front of a camera

-the media keeps seeming to forget it was a Hispanic that shot the kid, implying the shooter was white

-it is being blown out of proportion to all of the other shootings that happen every day in this country.

You, know, the usual.

Leticia said...

The whole point that it WAS a Muslim that committed these heinous acts of violence.

These are NOT isolated incidents. And it's not just happening here in the States.

Z said...

Sue, those are all things all of us take into consideration...
and you say "~and that we DO NOT make the 'good Muslims' - and we know that they exist - suffer for what the bad ones do"

I'm personally more worried about US IN AMERICA suffering for what the bad ones do.
GOod muslims should be fighting just as hard and extremely vocally for that exact goal, and a very few are and I admire them enormously but they don't get the media coverage because the media's afraid for anyone to admit muslim jihad's looming.

Chuck, you nailed it...where IS the condemnation? Super comment, all of it. thanks.
We know MANY MUSLIMS condemn this...they need to make US feel better, we don't owe THEM a thing.

Sue, you do realize Chuck's completely sarcastic, don't you. There has been no moderate muslim condemnation...just wanted to make sure. You probably did get it..

Brooke, exactly.

Dave, Chuck's a very smart guy and I doubt that he feels it's agreement.... May we please just ask where moderate muslims are without condemning them all? What's your logic? And how many years will it be before they DO speak out in numbers?

You say to Lisa "Thanks Lisa for somehow equating a health care act that you don't like with terrorism... incredible..."

You know Lisa didn't do that...why say it?
I guess it's easier to use that to not address the rest of her very good points, but that's not right.

And of course any thinking adult understands this is a very vexing problem.
Is it so bad that I want US protected first? I think that's fair...it was until political correctness became the rule of the day, much to our peril.

AOW>...it's a whole different breed of monster, isn't it.
Did he murder then go home and post videos? I have read a few accounts and am not clear on how he posted videos.

I'm hoping it won't be losing Cleveland or the East COast to a dirty bomb, or a shopping center filled with shoppers being killed, etc., before we get busy; then I'm pretty sure we'll be blaming ourselves, anyway, if the politically correct crowd's still in charge.

Gee, it seems some find the rest of us hateful for just wishing the muslims some of us trust to do the right thing AREN'T (in numbers...I'm a great fan of Zuhdi Jasser and many of the Canadian muslims who ARE speaking out).

sue hanes said...

Actually - Z - no I didn't know that Chuck was being sarcastic in his comment about Muslims.

There's something that you - and everyone who comes in contact with me should know - if they don't already realize it.

I AM DENSE - to a fault.

I call it being - Inherently Stupid.

But don't let that fool ya - because I'm not totally stupid.

But it's always there - with me - the possibility that I WON'T GET IT.

But when I do 'get it' - look out -never underestimate stidh - folks.

Still - it's always there - I'm want ya call a simple person - always have been - always will be.

Z said...

Well, Sue, we can all be obtuse from time to time...don't you hate being human? :-)

Re Chuck's comment...I had a feeling you'd agree with it as it was, we'd all like to, but the truth is he was being sarcastic and so it's sad we can't bank on all muslims speaking out against such really threatening actions of the few who are in jihadi camps now..and the thousands who've 'graduated'!

sue hanes said...

Z - 'I'm more worried about US IN AMERICA suffering for what the bad ones do.'

And rightfully so - Z.

My comment does not mean that I am not also worried about what the bad Muslims do - here in America.

But it is important - from reading my comment - for people to see that - I am always interested in keeping Our Standards In Place - here in Our Great Country - no matter what.

Sure - there are tough times when people take things in their own hands. Things can get Really bad -that happens.

But overall - I like to see the Good Guys act like Good Guys - all of the time - in spite of how the Bad Guys act.

That is not always easy - BUT IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

and in the end - ya always come out ahead - if ya know the 'right thing to do.'

sue hanes said...

No - Z - I don't hate being human.

In fact - I am very proud of Being Human.

Becuase being Human means being alive.

Once we die - we are no longer Human - but rather we go back to whatever we were before we were given the wonderful privilege of Life Here On Earth.

We go Somewhere Out There - a place I don't mind going - I've just got a few things I want to do here - first. Unfinished business - ya might say.

Ya know what they say - 'you only go around once' and although for most of my Life - I didn't see that.

But I see it now - Z.

And I'm trying to make up for Lost time.

Liberalmann said...

Nice deflection from the racist killing in Florida. And the silence from the right and Fox News is the same a condoning it. Impertinent's ridiculous spin is typical from wingnuts.

Z said...

Sue, my line about being humans was a joke..


Liberalman,
what?

Impertinent said...

"And how many years will it be before they DO speak out in numbers?..."

Perhaps when all the apostates in Dearborn get a little taste from their own?

Chuck said...

Liberalmann,

Nice deflection from the racist killing in Florida. And the silence from the right and Fox News is the same a condoning it. Impertinent's ridiculous spin is typical from wingnuts.

Every time you post something it seems as if you just can't say anything more stupid. I give you credit though, you persevere and reach new lows all of the time.

Fox is reporting on the case in Florida. In fact, I have been just as disappointed in their rushing to conclusions on the case as I have been of the rest of the media.

All of the Republican candidates have been condemning it. Again, showing they are just as reactive as the rest of the country.

What is your basis for calling it racist? Are you trying to assert that Hispanics do not like blacks? What are you, some kind of racist?

In short, we do not know what has happened down there, and, your an idiot.

Lisa said...

Thanks Z for explaining to Dave. Now let me try too.
Dave when the Muslim guy try to explode a car bomb in Times Square. Mayor Bloomberg came out and said it was probably a Tea Party member who was unhappy about Obamacare. So in fact it was him who was equating terrorism with the healthcare act.

I am sure MSNBC's White House Memo made sure to say not to report that.

Impertinent said...

"Impertinent's ridiculous spin is typical from wingnuts..."


Which part you little cockroach? The 1st amendment? The 2nd? Or all 10 of the Bill of Rights?

Typical libturd comments. "We don't like those laws and rights...so we have to take them away from everyone".

We don't want to live in your silly , lying world libturd. Crawl back under your rock.

"Nice deflection from the racist killing in Florida."

Racist? How so? Zimmerman is a minority protected Latino. Less than 49% of the residents in his neighborhood are white. And the last 7 robberies in the last 15 months were all committed by blacks.

And the silence from the right and Fox News is the same a condoning it.


Why? CVause they're not like MSLSD sending a black racist psycho to Florida hoping to start a race riot, by bussing in the NPP and other hoodlums?

sue hanes said...

Z - I kinda thought your line about Humans was a joke - but I seized the Opportunity to write that post - say some things.

sorry

:]

Impertinent said...

"I AM DENSE - to a fault..."


Jeeez.....I kind of assumed that when you didn't know what model Volvo you've been driving for the last 6 years..LOL / sarc off

Impertinent said...

"For me, it does not matter what religion he, or she follows...."

Of course not. You needn't worry about Christians, Buddists, Mormons, Jehovahs or Jews killing your children do you?

But...a Muslim....tens of thousands of killings...hundreds dead every day. No worry though right Dave? Keep your blinding PC to yourself. 99.99% of us aren't convinced about the "peacefulness" of Islamists.

Dave Miller said...

Imp, what I said is 100% right... it does not matter what religion someone follows, killing a bunch of innocent people is an act of terror.

Is there something not factual in what I said?

Imp, since you seem to believe, if I read your statement correctly, that failure to condemn certain acts of violence that civilized people abhor can be seen as empirical evidence that they agree with such acts, is that relative, or is it always true?

Impertinent said...

Unfortunately Dave...it does matter to many of us. As I said...you won't find this wanton slaughter, genocide, chaos, anarchy and outright savage murderers in any of the 3 great religions I mentioned.

You won't read of Jews assassinating children at a Christian Day care center...nor Christians killing little Jewish kids on they way to school. Only the adherents to Islam condone, demand, advise and preach this to their minions.

And it's not limited to silly "fatwa's" issued by some fat, corrupt imam either.

Find me a news article where a Catholic priest or a Rabbi issued such an order to their flock at a Temple, or a Church at weekend services. You're of the same mindset that the "commanders" of our troops in combat have fallen into with their suicidal ROE's. Now people like you want to impose the same ROE's on us.

Make us believe its not "religions"...And in one respect I agree.....It's not religions as we know them. Islam is NOT a religion...it's a political ideology that runs entire countries. So when that fatwa is issued in Iran....it's as if Obama declared war on every country he might be pissed off at on any given day.

Insane, right? Problem is Dave....you can't condemn evil...real evil when you see it. Not every german was a party Nazi....but every damn German was somehow complicit in the extermination of 6 million people....because they never spoke out against it.

Oh yea....theres a few that do. But the Islamist quickly labels them apostates and call for their death for breaking the Islamist code...that unifies them. It's Islam or nothing Dave...don't kid yourself. We're just so stupid and naive...wanting to believe what's not in front of us. Wanting to assume that this "religion" is really peaceful contrary to 1500 years of violence and blood it's spilled...that still demands to be quenched.

If an army of an enemy declares his army to be all Muslim all Islamist....does that make him a Non enemy because that's his..."religion" and we don't fight against a "religion"?

Impertinent said...

"or is it always true?.."


Of course...what other justification can there be? WHAT "reasoning" can allow such carnage to go unpunished or unaccountable? Good God...my God doesn't demand the blood of Christians, Jews or Muslims to satisfy his need for conquest.
Nor rationalize it for the 12th Imam or a Caliphate.

Z said...

"Dave Miller said...
Imp, what I said is 100% right... it does not matter what religion someone follows, killing a bunch of innocent people is an act of terror."

Dave, is it "100% right" that you're only repeating this (in spite of the obviousness of the statement) to avoid the truth in the post and the comments here?

Impertinent said...

I'm stunned....stunned by the lack of response....stunned by the lack of ....a GD response. Stunned that NO ONE...has an opinion.

Except Ms. Z. Un fookin believaable.

Impertinent said...

Here we are facing a force so evil...so murderous....so uncompromising...that we'd give these bastards one inch....one millimeter of room...to kill us.

Yet..we run along sappy, stupid and happy. Spring break is more worthy of a spot than a crazed islamist in france???? God help us all.

In my world.....Dearborn would be locked down. So would all of Minnesota.

Impertinent said...

" Quote of the day"


Conservatives want to assure equality at the starting line.


Liberals want to assure equality at the finish line.

Lisa said...

Imp I couldn't have put it any better and frankly haven't seen anything much more accurate and profound as what you wrote in your comments.
You left no room for Dave to come back with his liberal BS .
You have a point and you make it so well.
Thank you for this blog Z where we can read some really thoughtful POV's.
You have some really great commenters here.

Impertinent said...

LISA

Thank you Lisa. I don't do this for ego...I don't do this for "effect". I do it for my belief that America is facing ruin. Facing a future that denies us our rights....our freedoms and a conviction that too many "Americans"...would rather trade, capitulate or "reason" away...their God given rights in order to avoid...."confrontation".


It's just so....so ugly...so tacky....so low life...to defend our basic freedoms from slime...like libtard dave miller...and his psychopaths that want us to..."understand" a murderous cult and deny us an effective response.

We're suppposed to just....realx....let the savages kill...maybe 3000 more. Maybe.

Look...I hate Islam...I hate fascism too. Both are the same.

Chuck said...

Impertinent,

" Quote of the day"


Conservatives want to assure equality at the starting line.


Liberals want to assure equality at the finish line.


Where is that from?

Lisa said...

Imp I know you don't because I can hear the passion in your comments.
We are all passionate because I agree with you we are on a decline and this sophomoric in the White House is guiding it to decline and we as Americans ave every right to call it what it is without pretending like that Obama is the great leader of all time when in fact he hides behind a mask because I believe it ain't' so pretty behind the mask and I am not going to pretend or be made to feel bad about it. Another 4 years of him and he will forge ahead full steam without restraint because he believes he is imperialistic.When a president calls people out an says he will act with or without congress that is a dangerous precedent. Can you imagine if a Republican said that? Impeachment hearings would be under way.
Just ask Hillary

Z said...

Imp..ya, where'd you get that quote?
Good one.

Z said...

Lisa, you said "Thank you for this blog Z where we can read some really thoughtful POV's.
You have some really great commenters here."

You're one of the best :-)
Thanks...I love having people here sharing ideas and passions.

It's so depressing to see, however, that there seem to be so many Americans who are of the mind that possible misplaced attention to others' feelings trumps the safety of our beloved families and friends.

I guess I'm one of the few who don't believe all muslims are terrorists (tho the left here loves to misread so much of what I say), but I do think that many of us would feel at least a little better if more and more muslims would speak out against their jihadi brethren.
That some don't understand that is almost appalling.

Dave Miller said...

Well Imp, you've got a lot there...

I'll try my best to hit as many as possible... it's late and I head out to the central valleys tomorrow for a week of medical clinics here in Oaxaca...

1. I struggle all the time with wanting to have our country be open to all, yet needing to protect what we have. I don't know what the solution is, unless we are limit access to those from Muslim cultures.

2. As for those who do not condemn, and I know this will be political, but if it is always true, as you said, I assume you would agree that anyone who did not condemn the words of Rush Limbaugh recently, must by your logic agree with him.

Now I know this not to be true, but I have found it interesting that many conservatives hold Muslim leaders to a standard that they will not expect the political leaders to uphold.

3. I am sure if you were to ask the many families of Catholics if they felt they were terrorized by the Christian church, they might say yes.

I am sure there are quite a few Jews who were also a little upset that within those quiet Germans, were many Christians who were just as guilty of not saying anything.

You see the world is a crappy place, because we are fallen people and no amount of trying is going to put that genie back into the bottle.

The message of scripture is clear in that we, as individuals, are not to consider ourselves better than anyone else, and we are to try our best to live as Christ lived in this broken place.

There are a lot of bad Muslims. Maybe right now, it is their time to be wholly and totally terrible. I don't know. But this much I do know, as a Christian, my side has been guilty of some pretty horrific stuff too, and it has been just as systematic.

4. As for evil, on that one, you're just wrong. I see more evil in a day where I serve than most people see in a lifetime.

I've never been in combat, but everyday I see destroyed lives and people who will never ever approach an equal starting line.

For me when I see 4 and 5 year old kids living with no hope, I see evil, because I know what is ahead for those kids.

Always On Watch said...

Well! This is quite a thread! I missed out because I was having monitor problems with my computer.

Certainly, there is evil all over the world. And there are gradations of evil as well. At least in the eyes of human beings.

But I found myself nodding in agreement to most of what Imp said.

The evil done by Merah should be condemned in no unequivocal terms.

I looked for a condemning statement by CAIR. There wasn't one!

CAIR Canada was silent too.

Why? Because Merah killed Jews?

As a result of this absence of moderate Muslims making vociferous is going to lead to a terrible day. A day much more terrible that the killings in Toulouse. Anti-Muslim passions are going to rise to an incredible level.

Z,
Merah was wearing some kind of video cam around his neck. Or that's the theory anyway.

beakerkin said...

Duncy

Unlike you the USA is my country.
I am not beholden to a criminal idea that has frequently proved deadly in repeated applications.

The US military deals with these types of incedents. In matters where there is reasonable doubt the benefit of the doubt goes to the soldiers who mostly serve with honor. It is interesting that you mention Bales. However, you seem to forget a Muslim tossing grenades at their fellow soldiers in Kuwait. Were you singing the same tune? Unlike you, I have confidence in the military to handle these matters in all cases.

We don't know what happened in Florida. There have been plenty of cases you were wrong about namely the Duke Lacross team rape case. I don't write about that type of stuff. Let the investigators do their jobs.

Funny when rich perverted French Socialists are accused of sex crimes by African Unionized Hotel labor you were singing a different tune. The case was dropped after the government violated the privacy
of victim by revealing her Asylum interview. The later moral flaws including faking Aids to get subsidized housing made the victim
an unreliable witness. Did you complain when the same media showed the face and name of the rape victim.

Bob said...

Dave:

I understand your concern that we can easily disparage Muslims that have not, and do not, hate us and want to kill us. You can define "us" as Christians, and US Citizens, and even all people of Western cultures.

However, I think Chuck has a point. You can name the mass murder incident perpetuated by Islamic radicals, and there has never been a general condemnation coming from Muslims communities about these outrages. If there is it hasn't made the news in the USA.

After not hearing any Muslim condemnation for years and years, I have concluded that George W Bush is right. "If you are not with us, you are against us".

It sounds simplistic but it is true. That's what history is telling us.

With all that said, I know Muslims who I don't think believe that way. So, why haven't my Muslim friends told me how they feel? I am probably as reticent as they because I don't want to harm our friendship. It is not an easy call, but I think the responsibility is on Muslims to tell us what they really think, and not let the terrorists do it for them.

Z said...

dave, I've not agreed with you much but I've never heard you be so disingenuous or use so many red herrings.
We're going to Germany to prove your points? Do you even know what a small percentage of Germans were NAZIS? Do you know how many Christians helped Jews?

Please allow us to ponder your list of ways we condemn in muslims what we don't condemn in our leaders, according to you.

And as for Rush? Your point is absolutely farcical.
First, have you heard that every candidate condemned him for that word he used which is 1000% more benign than the C word the Left so often uses?

DId you know the networks didn't cover Maher's C word and his giving a president who should condemn all that one million dollars? No criticism.
Rush? "slut"? 40 stories in 10 days on ONE network alone.

Dave, you seem to be running out of steam; your points are absolutely the weakest yet.

Z said...

Bob, so well said "I think the responsibility is on Muslims to tell us what they really think, and not let the terrorists do it for them."

The truth is they should also tell us what they think (If they in fact don't agree with jihad/terrorism) so we can relax. The onus is NOT on US, it is on THEM. This is OUR COUNTRY, this was OUR COUNTRY ATTACKED BY MUSLIMS.

I don't believe most muslims want much more than to live peaceful lives in which their children can thrive, but then they really can't believe in their koran, can they.
this is why many scholars call for reformation of islam.
It won't happen; unlike the vast majority of American CHristians who don't want Andrea Yeager to set our agenda, that seems to be the case in islam and most muslims don't seem to mind.

Z said...

They have arrested the killer's brother and sister-in-law after they found explosives in their car...they are both said to have told people they are proud of this horrible man who killed 7 innocent people.

Impertinent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Impertinent said...

They have arrested the killer's brother and sister-in-law after they found explosives in their car..."


Of course...Muslim murder is always best with the family planning how best to kill.

Islam = 's All in the Family...of Islam.

And of course...show pride in the murders by posting the actual murders on You Tube for the rest of the family of sick, twisted loons ( Muslims ) to celebrate and be in awe over.

I can imagine the conversation around the family table...."Oh look Mohammed...see how the little Jew childs brains splattered all over...Good choice that 9MM right Abdul"?

Dave Miller said...

Z, Sorry about "bringing" up Germany but I was responding to IMP, who first raised the issue.

Historically we know that many Christians acquiesced over there and that the largest Christian church at the time, the Catholic Church, apparently felt they did not do enough, since they have since apologized for their non actions.

It is just a fact that through history, Christians have done some very evil stuff in the name of religion. They have killed, been discriminatory, etc., etc.

You can deny it, or choose to ignore it, but facts are facts.

We did it then, the muslims are doing it now.

It was wrong then, it is wrong now.

As for statements condemning terrorism from a Muslim viewpoint, I used to believe that there were none.

After some reading and research, here's a link to a good list.

http://www.cair.com/americanmuslims/antiterrorism/islamicstatementsagainstterrorism.aspx

Also, Mitt Romney did not condemn the language of Limbaugh, he said he would have used other words. If you had a daughter and someone called her a slut or whore, what other words would you want that person to use to describe her?

Finally, any thought that Bill Maher, a lousy comedian and a lout in my opinion gave President Obama, or his campaign a million dollars is a lie.

It is illegal to do so, and I do not understand why conservatives persist in this lie.

He gave the money to a PAC that favors Obama. A PAC that is prohibited by law from having direct contact and consultation with the candidates they support.

It is just like the PACs that support Gingrich [10 Million from Sheldon Adelson] Santorum [1 million from Dore] and Romney [Millions from many].

It is the system we have after the conservative SCOTUS ruled in Citizens United case.

Ed Bonderenka said...

One prominent islamic apologist condemned the attack. At least I think Obama did.

Impertinent said...

"the Catholic Church, apparently felt they did not do enough, since they have since apologized for their non actions...."

The Catholic Church didn't have an army to stop it. And....once more...the Muslims had their bloody hands in the murder of Jews under Hitler...read up on the Grand Mufti...a pal of Adolph's.


Although I sometimes think jump starting the Crusades up again might be a good idea.

After all Dave...it is Islam against the rest of the worlds religions...right?

Coptics in Egypt....Jews in palestine...Christians in Lebanon and everywhere else on the planet...

Come on....pull your head out of there....truth in sunlight will change your outlook and disingenuousness.

Impertinent said...

"We are in a war to save the Western World. The Christian and Jews have turned their back on the faith that sustained and strengthened them against the first jihad over a thousand years ago.

Now that the second jihad is here we have lost the will to fight as we should by losing our faith. Muslims haven't lost their faith or determination. I fear for America and Western Judeo-Christian civilization."


Food for thought Dave.

Z said...

Dave, I simply can't believe what you've said.
It's an OBAMA SUPER PAC...do you know about them? Every pundit, left and right, is saying that Maher gave one million to the obama people...nobody denies that. Nobody thinks he wrote Barack Obama a check to finance Michelle's trips, believe me.
And for you to list the rich who've given to the Rep. Super Pacs is also disingenuous. Nobody has a problem with that...we have problems with men who say C*** and worse and then have a million dollars accepted by our president.
THat's not that difficult to understand, in my opinion. It's NOT THE MONEY.

As for bringing up Germany or the evils of Christians in the past; do you really think we all don't know that? Do you see an Andrea Yeager leading the muslim world like the terrorists seem to be speaking for muslims now?

How many times must I say I do NOT condemn all muslims? What I've said all along is that most of us wish that they would speak out against their evil as Christians do ours of the past and present.

Andrea Yeager doesn't represent me in the killing of her children; I'm hoping good muslims start to speak out against their killers, too. I really don't think that's too much to ask.
I said in a comment above, that Dr Zuhdi Jasser is one of my heroes; a muslim I've heard speak in person who is doing exactly what more muslims SHOULD be doing; speaking up for their faith, condemning the evils of their faith.
Reformation is necessary.
Christians had one.
I'm imagining, that next you'll be condemning David and Saul and JOnathan for the evils in the Old Testament? I thought you were ordained or something and might understand that God did all sorts of killing and plundering in the O.T. and that most thinking people understand that God has his ways and we don't continue those goings-on today.

Z said...

Imp...where'd that quote you put in BOLD just now come from, please?

Z said...

Dave, by the way, had my daughter been Fluke and had Rush said she's a slut....I'd have agreed.
To go on television and discuss her angst at not getting her contraception paid for by others was the most amazingly immoral and shameful thing I can think of, no matter that our president calls her and tells her what a great girl she is.

Impertinent said...

And Dave...as far as your link to CAIR?

Thanks but no Thanks....anything coming from the perpetually aggrieved terrorist front such as Cair...has to be dismissed outright against all their other hateful rhetoric.

These "moderate Muslims" as they're referred to condemn in public what they celebrate in private. We can't trust any of them. They are told and taught to lie to the infidel.

Thats you and me Dave.

Z said...

Ed, good one!

Imp...they tell us anything from FOX isn't news but they'll lead us to CAIR or Huffington Post for unbiased reporting :-)

Dave Miller said...

IMP, Z, and the rest... How a simple belief that when anyone kills an innocent person, with forethought and malice is terrorism gets turned into a massive discussion is beyond me.

The guy who killed the Jews in France is guilty of terrorism. The guy who killed the Afghani women and children is guilty of terrorism.

If Zimmerman is found to be guilty of murder without cause, in my eyes, he will be guilty of terrorism.

There are no politics here. At least from me, unless to defend my views from people who have labeled me a libturd and essentially said I have my head up my ass.

Z, I am gonna say it and then take my leave...as others have pointed out, you have no real desire to let people Sing! But keep it clean.

You have frequently allowed your commenters to personally attack folks from the left with language that you delete if the left employs against the right.

And that is your right. It is your blog, but at least don't deny what others have also witnessed.

I do not think I have ever used the language that has been used to describe me and if I have, I apologize.

In closing, as I said, yes Maher gave money to an Obama leaning PAC. But it did not go to Obama any more than the money those other folks gave to the friends PACs went to them.

It is the law.

And while you may accept some Muslims, others like IMP, do not seem to be as charitable, perhaps I was addressing them.

Impertinent said...

Gee Father Dave....you get called a "libturd" and I get called a "wingnut" or worse.

Funny how it never bothered you in about 3 subsequent posts of yours to me.

Believe it or not...I've been warned about my "saltiness" and I've really toned it down. But...if you're offended...well...then doing what your doing is what you should do.

Have as nice day Dave.

Ed Bonderenka said...

Dave, All murders are not terrorism.
Only those acts (arson, thuggery, assassination, etc.) perpetrated to foster a climate of fear are terrorism.
And any money given to support a candidate is de facto given to that candidate as it supports them and the attainment of their goals.
Once again, muslims who are not supportive of jihad either have not read the book, or have formulated their own watered down theology (Zuhdi, who I like, included) much like most liberal "christians" who support homosexuality, abortion, etc.

Impertinent said...

"others like IMP, do not seem to be as charitable.."


You be as charitable, understanding and as liberal as you like towards our enemies....just don't drag me into it or force me too accept your indignation that I don't know what Islam is about. You and yours just don't want to accept the hard facts. Facts that tens of thousands of "charitable" people once had and are no longer here.

What rubbish.

Z said...

Dave, it very obviously got into a discussion for the reasons I've said it did in my comments since your first remark...do you read all the comments?

The point is islamic terrorism and how so many want to write that off and don't understand that we'd like muslims to speak out against it, but they don't...do you read the comments?

You almost always avoid the points we're making and then come back insinuating it's we who are confused. If you don't mind my saying so, it's always been a little annoying.

And yes, I don't like the language that some on either side use, frankly, but we're all adults and I let my commenters go so far and then I delete.
I do wish the left would pay attention to the actual points and engage in rational discussions so nobody has to resort to language I don't appreciate here.

As for the PAC, are you still insisting that the Obama campaign will not benefit from the money? I heard Maher again, today, on tape, saying I'M GIVING ONE MILLION DOLLARS TO THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN. What you're saying, no offense, is a bald faced lie. Why persist?

As for ZImmerman being a terrorist? No, I think we all know the definition of terrorism changed on 9/11. If he did this in cold blood, he's a cold blooded killer, if he was beaten by this kid and his life was threatened, he was defending himself. Regardless, I think we should all feel awful this kid is dead, but it is not terror in the sense we use it now and I believe we all know that.

Ed's right about terrorism...excellent comment, Ed, by the way....all of it is very true.

Imp, I don't have the energy to look back, did Dave use WINGNUTS? I never thought he did that.

Dave, it's difficult to come to a blog, ignore the points, then complain and insult we're not paying attention to your new point. What can I say?
I wish you the best.

beakerkin said...

Z

If you ever had any doubt the Duck is out of his mind read his comments about the DSK rape victim.
The Duck seems to want to out Beamish Mr Beamish and be tough on immigration when the person has the
nerve to accuse a Socialist Sexual
predator.

So much for his concerns about working class Black Muslims, but most of us knew this long ago.

Z said...

Beak, what's DSK??

Z said...

Beak, never mind...Dominic Strauss Kahn. I remember now.
I'm not sure what your comment says...!??

Right Wing Theocrat said...

Perhaps the French authorities were scared of being accused of racism if they looked into this scumbag, and so 3 innocent people had to pay the price.

Always On Watch said...

Z,
Reformation is necessary.
Christians had one.


Such a reform is more problematic in Islam and requires excising nearly 1/2 of the verses in the Koran.

In Christianity, reform was a matter of interpretation. That's quite a different scenario. Not to mention the issue of corruption within the Roman Catholic Church at that time.

beakerkin said...

Dave

You are not the only person who works with laws. The fact that two people had an altercation and are of different races does not make it a racist incident.

1) We don't know exactly what happened let the investigators do their job and if it goes to trial let a jury.

2) In no definition does this act come close to terrorism. In the worst case scenerio you have an unbalanced man playing Barney Fife with deadly consequences, nothing more.

3) Law enforcement does and should profile people on a variety of factors. Does it make sense to worry about people in wheel chairs chain snatching.

The hoodie is a gang symbol. It is also worn by joggers. The victim in this case was a young male. Young males commit more crimes than senior citizens.

4) When profiled in stores or elsewhere do your business co-operate and be respectful. I say this as a person stopped more than 30 times by law enforcement in VT
in 3 years. Some of these stops were silly like asking me about guns in a laundomat. Maybe the locals think I studied the Mr. Beamish technique to remove stains with gunpowder.

Lastly as a person who has survived two terrorist attacks I will remind you there is a world of difference between Merah and Zimmerman. Barney Fife meant well but is unsuited for his task. Merah executed seven people in cold blood in the name of religious
supremacy.

Z said...

Beak, you're right, of course this isn't TERRORISM.
It's horrible ..not terrorism.

I did read just now that the kid was there going to a friend's house in that tract of houses.
I get the feeling that if he'd just stopped and spoken to Zimmerman and told him where he's going, none of this would have happened.
I can't blame either side because we don't know the details, but a civil confrontation should have happened...why didn't it? Why should the kid be afraid of Zimmerman enough to 'walk fast' away? ANd when and how did Zimmerman get the scratches that people are saying he got?

beakerkin said...

Z

Not all people are suited for law enforcement. It is a job that taxes the best of us. How we deal with power and how we react under pressure dictates how effective we will be.

A look a Zimmerman and his numerous
calls to 9-11 show this was not exactly the most ballanced guy. He is someone who wanted to be something he can't be. In no way do
I think he meant to kill anyone.
However, an investigation and or jury will get to the bottom of this.

In my own job I learned the hard way about unsuitabiliy. Some officers tried to make cases that were not there to make themselves look like heroes. A good officer assess the situation and shows good judgement. There is no substitute for sound judgement and the honest intention of public service.

Zimmerman is more Walter Mitty and mental than criminal.

Impertinent said...

"A look a Zimmerman and his numerous calls to 9-11 show this was not exactly the most ballanced guy."

Not at all. His numerous calls ( 45 over several years ) demonstrated that he abided by the rules...didn't seek confrontation and wished for the cops to take care of his concerns...as anyone in a neighborhood watch group is advised to do.

And again...that's exactly what he did on that day too.

As far as "unbalanced"? In Fla he certainly wouldn't have received, been issued or granted a CCW if there was one hint of mental imbalance. And..if his calls to the cops made them wary of him and his CCW abilities...there would have been action on their part to have his permit revoked.

Each time he met with responding cops he was required by law to tell them he was armed and show a lawful and current permit.

Z said...

Beak, I think you explained that so well and I thank you. I've always been impressed by your knowledge of this kind of stuff but never so much as now...you really helped us understand a situation that I believe is probably the case.
Call it WOmen's Intuition on my part as I have very little knowledge of law enforcement, guns, and what it takes to do either very well.

Imp...I'll look forward to your input since you're in Florida and seem to get much more information than most of us are.
Was it you who mentioned (maybe it's here but I'm too lazy to look right now) that Zimmerman was bleeding from the head and had scratches?

ALl of this is a REAL enigma....will anybody ever really know what happened.

Impertinent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Impertinent said...

" that Zimmerman was bleeding from the head and had scratches?..."

First of all I completely disagree with beaks unsubstantiated and biased assessment of GZ. I sent you the link to the 911 tapes and one can clearly hear that GZ was not the raving, unhinged lunatic that beaks assumes he is.

This is not...nor will it be the last time any citizen of Florida who has / will "stand their ground" and within the letter of the law. As a matter of fact...this has occurred many times in Florida since 2005. And there are 30 other states who have modeled their CCW laws after Florida's. It's absurd to expect or demand any person to run, escape or avoid a person who poses threat to their lives.

And No one to my knowledge has ever been prosecuted for using deadly force to protect themselves.

But..we all know what makes this one different, don't we?

As far as I know....this couldn't be the first time a white / Latino or a back stood their ground. Or a black was hot by a white guy either. In some counties in Fla...whites are the minority. So I'm sure that a black could have used the law to shoot a white guy too....although the stats don't usually bear that out.

In Florida...I assume...that everyone is armed. That potentially everyone around me can legally carry. So it's not wise to get into road rage, assault or macho fueled knife fights with a CCW owner!

Zimmerman had the crap beat out of him. The mans screams for help on those 911 tapes are indisputable and chilling.

There are, so far, two witnesses who saw the "kid" on top of GZ beating him. And yes....his face was beaten and bloody....and he had the back of his head creased...from behind. He required medical attention from EMT's and the cops who responded to the call.

This is what Mr. Zimmerman saw and faced on that evening.


http://suxorz.com/i5/1332569412.jpg


Even the racist Geraldo has claimed that "hoodies" are a dangerous signal to the public. And there's sufficient evidence to back that claim up. A few flash mob videos on You Tube should convince you of that. They are simply and clearly head gear for gangsters and hoodlums.

Yet what do the silly leaders of the poverty pimps do? Stage a hoodie march. Nice.

Z said...

Imp, thanks for sending that email with the 911 recordings and thanks for posting it here....
Please, everybody, let's listen and see what we can discern. I'm going to listen after I'm thru with my comment here.

Imp, your input is compelling, too.
I'm going to listen now.

And ya...you'd sent me that Geraldo interview via email but I'd actually seen it live (imagine me giving a minute to Geraldo, but I caught that minute and was STUNNED)... you're right...he really did blame the kid for wearing a hoodie...

Here's what I really hate: When lefties like Geraldo and Juan Williams and Kirsten Powers make SENSE.. I say I hate it in kind of a joking way because when they make sense or reflect the viewpoints of Conservatives, it compels me to listen to what they say to support their leftist viewpoints, know what I mean? I honor and respect them for obviously not just writing off the Right's viewpoints because they're from the Right...they VERY RARELY DO THAT. Odd they only seem to come clean and show a less than very-liberal bent on FOX, I guess they'd never dare on other venues, or maybe that's why they're NOT ON other venues like CNN or MSNBC?...because THEY THINK? These are absolutely liberal people who THINK and at least take into account the Republican viewpoints and even apparently share some of them.
Kirsten is an Obama fan and left on most everything, but SHE DOES WRITE ABOUT MEDIA BIAS BY THE LEFT.
We all know what happened to Juan, though sometimes he's got such liberal viewpoints I grit my teeth ...

anyway, all this to say that it's those on the Left or Right who at least entertain the other side's viewpoints and even sometimes agree, who make me sit up and take notice. That means they are THINKING...not Maher, not Schultz, not Savage, etc etc...but really open to other views. that counts .

Z said...

OH, darn...Imp, (I almost typed your real name!)...could you link the 911 tape here?
I thought that's what that link was but it's pix of TM not looking quite as clean cut and upstanding as the ones TV's been showing. How odd, huh? (ya, right, Z...very odd...sarcasm here)
The pix I've seen make him look like a church going Rhodes Scholar.

Impertinent said...

Z..

Scroll to the very bottom for the audio:


http://tinyurl.com/7foq6cg

Impertinent said...

"We all know what happened to Juan, though sometimes he's got such liberal viewpoints I grit my teeth ..."

Juan does it fore the money Z. Cause deep down in his roots and DNA...he's still part of the perennially aggrieved crowd. "Sniveling Rights".. He was really at home on NPR and with their views too.

beakerkin said...

Imp

Genuine neighborhood watches tend to work in pairs. 40+ calls in the space of years is an unusually high number.

An effective watch tends to know who is comming and going and how to engage in conversation with the public. Example a 40 something is sitting in a NY Yankee hoodie reading a book in a known drug location and drinking a 24 Oz can.
This is how a professional cop handled it. They came over to me and realized it was Arizona Ice Tea
and the book was the Seven Myths of Gun Control. They told me the park is closing shortly and made small conversation. As the local police were familiar with me from numerous traffic stops the cop knew
I lived a short distance away.

Many times a professional is just feeling out the people who live on his beat. In my case, I was an outsider who kept to themselves but
lived in a high crime area. They were more frustrated by my NYC habits like getting groceries at 3AM and running for newspapers and a bagel at 5AM. These are behaviors familiar to NYC residents
but not Northern Vermonters.

The most important tool an officer
has is their mind. A simple conversation usually gleans all that is needed. I grasp Zimmerman got beaten up. However, the mood beforehand based on the call was nervous. It is doubtful that he attempted to ascertain what Zimmerman was doing.

Even if it turns out he is innocent
he is not suited to this task by temperment. This is a task that is best left to professionals. In NYC
Auxillary cops and most neighborhood watches work closely with the genuine authorities.

Impertinent said...

"40+ calls in the space of years is an unusually high number..."

Not over the course of 11 years. And not in a neighborhood that has had a high break in / robbery rate either. It is a gated community. Here:

http://tinyurl.com/7p2b6xn

"However, the mood beforehand based on the call was nervous. It is doubtful that he attempted to ascertain what Zimmerman was doing."


You mean what the "kid" was doing, right? GZ sounded collected to me...and got frustrated that these guys always get away. He might have been nervous...here was a "kid" in his neighborhood that he didn't know...and the "kid" was staring him down and approaching him.

The"kid" was "bitching" to his girlfriend that a "dude" was looking him over as I understand it.

As far as watches working in pairs....I have no knowledge that he wasn't. He certainly knew how to contact the Sanford cops...which is what he's supposed to do.

Then again...maybe the HOA couldn't afford the expense of that kind of watch. It seems to be a middle class neighborhood. Not like the multi million dollar gated "ranches" we have down here. And Sanford is a train stop for AmTrak....not NYC where everyone is so cool.

Impertinent said...

BTW beak...one of his long time friends and neighbors is a black man that says no way is GZ racist. His community is 49% "white' too.

One more thing beak....I find it appalling that they have placed ( the militant racist NBPP crowd ) a bounty on this mans head. Who has NOT been charged with a crime in line with Floridas laws. Period.

I also find it disgusting that these same militant racists...say not ONE word...nothing...about the 49 shootings in Chicago two weeks ago...in a week...with 11 dead. In a state that DOES NOT ALLOW LEGAL GUN OWNERSHIP....just ILLEGAL GUNS.

In a state where for 30 + years murder of blacks is as common as a winter storm.

In Obamas state...where he was a senator...in the same city...Obama lives / lived.

But...there is hope...for the 1st time in 40 years...in the month of March...there hasn't been a murder in Newark....yet.

Impertinent said...

Yet Obama has the unmitigated gall...to "adopt" this kid. Once more the racist in chief shows where his allegiance is. And with whom.

Hyphenated Americans is who.

Impertinent said...

And as far as Obama goes, when can we expect his statement on flash-mobs or the knockout game? I won't be holding my breath for either.

Z said...

Imp, I'm not as convinced as you are about Juan. Most of the time, if it's a conservative social thing, he's on our side. There are a lot of things I like about him but then, I'll admit, he goes to a socialist place I find hard to justify with him.
I think they're all money whores; Juan's no worse than O'Reilly, in my opinion, on that score.

Re Obama, you'll like my post tomorrow, Imp...big time. Oh, God, Imp...I just read your thing about killings in Chicago; you will REALLY appreciate my slant on tomorrow's post ...I'm tempted to post it now but will not.

I heard a white guy who works under GZ...he said GZ is sort of the head of the neighborhood and he has a small part himself...he said GZ never said the slightest racist thing around him.

Think New Jersey's better record could be CHRISTIE? I'm never sure how new governors can influence crime, but you have to admit this could be the case.
And, GEE, I thought CHristie'd made things a little tougher financially for folks because of belt tightening and LOOKY HERE...LESS KILLINGS!? The Left will be beside itself :-)

Man, is it POURING RAIN HERE...I LOVE IT!

Impertinent said...

"Think New Jersey's better record could be CHRISTIE?.."

Nah...Christie's a big...BIG...RINO. Hates guns...his storm troopers will arrest you as quickly as Bloomturds nazi's will.

I had a permit to carry concealed in NJ once. Took months. What I'd like to see is a real AG who abides by the constitution sue states who refuse their citizens 2nd amendment rights.

Just as readily they would over civil rights and 1st amendment rights. Some free speech can be more dangerous than any Glock or XD9..IMHO.


Can't wait for the surprise on the blog too.....give me a hint in email?

Z said...

Imp, I listened to most of those tapes..thanks for linking it...I was struck by the fact that, at first, the dispatcher asks GZ the race of the guy who looks like he doesn't belong there, and he says he doesn't know but "he looks black.." Of course, he's wearing a hood and it's dark..and I think I heard it was raining, right? What's the kid doing walking around aimlessly in the rain, anyway?
And he's walking suddenly toward GZ with his hand in his waistband but he was supposedly holding a cell phone talking to his girlfriend? If he's worried about GZ, as the girlfriend says he says he was, why wouldn't he just say "Hey, I'm TM and I'm staying at my friends' house and it's over there.." I'd heard he was staying with someone in that tract?

Did they do a drug check on his body?

ANother witness of the noises he heard from inside his house said people were wrestling... I can't tell if the screams for help were before he was shot or after...probably before, since it sounds like he died after only one shot, so it was a shot to the heart or head?

I have to commend those 911 dispatchers, they were all terrific.

Impertinent said...

"What's the kid doing walking around aimlessly in the rain, anyway?"..

Of course...but the bleeders will defend his right to attack GZ..be obstinate / un cooperative and acting like a bad ass punk.

It was simple to me...but the kid cops an attitude...then turns on the guy. Why his hand was in his waistband? maybe he wanted GZ to think he too might be armed?

BTW...for Beak:

n 2008, Zimmerman enrolled in the Seminole County Sheriff's Office citizens' law-enforcement academy, a four-month-long, one evening a week course consisting of a total of 14 hours of classes.

Zimmerman expressed ambitions of becoming a member of law enforcement, writing: "I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regard and I hope to one day become one."


In 2009, Zimmerman re-enrolled in Seminole State College and was working toward an associate degree with the goal of becoming a police officer.

Zimmerman was listed in the HOA newsletter as being the person responsible for security.

Wendy Dorival, who organizes Neighborhood Watch for the Sanford Police Department, told the Sentinel in a recent interview that Zimmerman was chosen as a watch coordinator by his neighbors."

Z said...

Seems simple to me, too..."Kid, just approach the guy and tell him who you are and what you're doing walking around aimlessly in the rain wearing what some consider gang clothes."

Should he have been killed for the above? No... but people forget GZ is human, too, with human fears, alone in the dark, with a kid with a hood with his hand on his waist band..at least that's the facts so far as we know them.

GZ doesn't sound crazed or hot for a victim in that 911 call...very calm, a little concerned, asking for back up..that's all.
THEN WHAT HAPPENED? If it's only that the guy ran, I can't see why GZ would shoot.......the cops said "let him go, don't follow"
I don't know why GZ got so involved but I don't think he's a racist or a crazed gunman.

Impertinent said...

"......the cops said "let him go, don't follow"..


911 dispatchers..are not cops. They just said very calmly..."you don't have to do that"...( because the cops were on the way) and he's under no legal obligation to take their...advice?

Z said...

Imp,
Okay, dispatcher, not cops...I know that, just misspoke...
the dispatcher says exactly "We don't need you to do that". In other words "don't" .. They're trying to protect GZ but you can hear by his suddenly heavier breathing that he is following the "ass hole".

Clearly, the guy'd be alive had GZ not followed him, and maybe the cops would have even got the guy and questioned him.

I know you disagree but I find it a very murky situation no matter how much I learn about it...

Impertinent said...

"Clearly, the guy'd be alive had GZ not followed him, and maybe the cops would have even got the guy and questioned him...."


Maybe the guy would be alive....and for other good reasons not attributable to GZ. What ever happened to staying calm ( like Chris Rock says ) and just answer the guy...if you have nothing to hide?

And then..GZ wouldn't have been much good at his job or to his HOA...as a Neighborhood Watch Captain....if he just decided not to get involved or question anyone? Cause they might cop an attitude?

I'd say this never happened to the guy before. And it made him anxious and nervous. The kid just exacerbated the situation.

Z said...

FROM ABC NEWS:

Trayvon Martin Killing: George Zimmerman's Attorney and Friend Speak Out
By DAVID MUIR and OLIVIA KATRANDJIAN
17 minutes ago

The attorney counseling George Zimmerman, who shot unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin as he was walking home from the store with a bag of Skittles, says if charges are filed, Zimmerman will argue that he acted in self-defense and that Florida's stand-your-ground law applies.

Attorney Craig Sonner said the public is only hearing part of the story, and when all the facts come out, it will be clear that Zimmerman acted in self defense. A grand jury is scheduled to begin hearing the case April 10.

"George Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, and had an injury to the back of his head, he was attacked by Trayvon Martin on that evening," Sonner said. "This was a case of self defense."


this is going to get interesting.

beakerkin said...

Imp

The fact that Zimmerman is not a cop after taking those courses should provide some clues. More than likely he wasn't able to pass the psychological tests.

Zimmerman has had minor issues with law enforcement himself. Law enforcement is a job that requires
clear thinking and good social skills.

When the story comes out you will find that Zimmerman is a wannabe.
Most work is subtle and feeling out the people in your area is part
of the job.

Social skills are a critical part of the job. Good officers rely on their well trained instincts. A good officer knows his community
and is proactive.

Michael G Miller said...

It is not particularly comforting to know that the killer's father is suing the French police claiming they murdered his son!
"Good will be called evil and evil will be called good."

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