Thursday, March 17, 2011

Japan's nuclear situation/ Have you noticed the reporting, too?

I've listened to and read quite a bit of coverage on the Japan nuclear situation in Fukushima and can't help observing that EVERY SINGLE nuclear physicist, nuclear engineer, ex-director of a nuclear power plant, and every other kind of expert in the nuclear business I have seen or heard, has said this situation is solvable and probably will be before it gets out of hand.

The ONLY people I have heard say it's a total disaster and will probably affect our West Coast and everyone is in peril, and worse, are news people reporting from over there and a far leftwinger Michael Medved had on yesterday.  It's just the oddest thing, and I really don't mean this to be political because it mustn't be.  Now, I must admit that I have a healthy fear of anything nuclear and remember my elementary school days jumping under my desk when the teacher said to, and I heard about bomb shelters and that kept me up a few nights, but the experts I have heard the last few days are rather reassuring!    The leftwing media is quite the opposite.

By the way, I know this is a little off-color but I can't help it...FUKU-SHIMA?  It seems a little odd that the nuclear power plant with that name is the troubled one :-)   What's the message?  Is Mother Earth, or someone else, complaining?

Have you, too, noticed my observation about who's more negative on this frightening scenario and who isn't?    

While you're thinking about it, please say a prayer for these devastated people;  nobody's making light of this awful situation, I just couldn't help but wonder about the difference in reportage.  Obviously, this nuclear situation is a TERRIBLE situation no matter what happens, and it goes without saying that the earthquake and tsunami truly are living nightmares and how our hearts go out to the Japanese people who've lost family, homes, businesses, etc.   Pray they'll get food, water, comfort.........and that many will find their loved ones they believe are lost. And pray for those giving aid, too.

geeeeeeZ!

156 comments:

Opus #6 said...

It seemed to me that media leftists were rooting for a full meltdown, to teach us all a lesson and to help their anti-nuke cause.

I think we should certainly look for any lessons that can be learned from the Japanese experience.

I pray for the Japanese, that their problems are solved soon.

BB-Idaho said...

Its a developing situation and a technical challenge. I haven't seent that much
hysteria in the media, but
a number of people have called me about the efficacy of potassium idodide...so imagination trumps science. Us ancients survived far more
radioactive species floating by during the serial testing of nukes in the 50s. Its all relative.

Z said...

Opus, we sure do have to look at any lessons we can learn from the Japanese situation...and pray for them, yes.

I was just watching TV news again...the experts are worried but calm and quoting facts that are reassuring...meantime, those 'on the ground' talk about the fear of what COULD happen, the long lines of people waiting for pills, the steam escaping, the experts giving mixed messages...

BB.. ...never said 'hysteria' but it's been only from the worst case scenario end of the spectrum, contrary to the experts who aren't 'there'...

I don't have my thyroid anymore so that's one thing I don't have to worry about living here in the West Coast!

Elmers Brother said...

You're right Z the reporters have been the hysterical ones and many of their so called experts are anti nuke left wingers. I was a qualified radiation worker in the Navy and I have to laugh at the idiocy of the reporting. A lot of ambiguity and weasel words.

Anonymous said...

The experts have to restrain their opinion.

An expert, without seeing the test results do not pronnance his opinion,

the GAP between the MEDIA and the experts is coming from this level of apreciations.

meanwhile, the tempreture in the reactor 4 is beyond the control, if they do not arrive to stop the temprature rise immediatly, the explosion of the internal core of the Combustible will damage the other 5 reactors, and it will be worst than CHERNOBIL.

NOW WE ARE ON ALERT between 6 and 7.

The people do not dare to aproach the roof to decrease the temprature with water.

The Water Tanker Helicopters pilots are scared to approach the roof.

the news are not good, the japeneeses experts in the field don't have the technical details, they answer to the questions by adding that, << I THINK, or, MAYBE>>.

Make attention, do not use any pille.

The iode pilles are efficient only for 48 hours.

Those pilles can be lethal to many people, Iode is extremelly dangerous, the ALERGIE caused by IODE can kill.

Do not PANIK, follow your DOCTORS prescriptions only.

Leave for now, LEFT OR RIGHT, we are all in the same BOAT.

SAM

Ducky's here said...

Well Michael Medved has a far left guess and that's the left's position. Then this excerpt from Rush must be the right's position. Follows, no?

.. people listen to this man?

RUSH: My god, she sounds like she saw her husband for the first time in six months there. Oh, it's recycling, look, organized for -- these people are in the midst of earthquake devastation and the credit they're getting is for recycling and our caller Chris with a great question. The Japanese have done so much to save the planet. He's right. They've given us the Prius. Even now, refugees are still recycling their garbage, and yet Gaia levels them [laughs], just wipes them out. Wipes out their nuclear plants, all kinds of radiation. What kind of payback is this? That is an excellent question. They invented the Prius. In fact, where Gaia blew up is right where they make all these electric cars. That's where the tsunami hit. All those brand new electric cars sitting there on the lot. I like the way this guy was thinking. It's like -- it's like Gaia hit the Prius in [inaudible]. It's like they were in the crosshairs, if we can use that word, it does. What is Gaia trying to tell us here? What is the mother of environmentalism trying to say with this hit? Great observation out there, Chris.
--------------------

Ah Rush, a man of infinite jest. But exposed plutonium has been mentioned. Whether this i a full meltdown or not it's pretty damn serious and there are no indications the reactors won't be out of control for an extended period.

Elmers Brother said...

duhkkky, you don't listen to Rush or you'd know tha the was talking about Dianne Sawyer's idiotic comment about how sweet it was that the Japanese were recycling and totally ignoring the woman's real situation.

Get a life duhkkky.

Elmers Brother said...

He wasn't jesting about the situation of the Japanese he was berating the MSM's idiotic scaremongering.

Ducky's here said...

Oh, did I insult your guru, Elmo?

The man's a pig.

Elmers Brother said...

No duhkkkky, you're the pig because you lack the intellectual capacity to argue the issues. You didn't even know the context of the conversation because that was the only part of the transcript HuffPO or Media Matters posted.

Now why aren't you chasing the Calvinists out of Venezuela?

Elmers Brother said...

Can anyone say red herring?

Elmers Brother said...

But exposed plutonium has been mentioned. Whether this i a full meltdown or not it's pretty damn serious and there are no indications the reactors won't be out of control for an extended period.

duhkkky do you even know what kind of emitter plutonium is?

it's an alpha emitter and a piece of paper is enough to shield you from it. Plutonium becomes an issue when it's inhaled or ingested.

Elmers Brother said...

You're still an idiot duhkkkster.

Being relatively heavy and positively charged, alpha particles tend to have a very short mean free path, and quickly lose kinetic energy within a short distance of their source. This results in several MeV being deposited in a relatively small volume of material. This increases the chance of cellular damage in cases of internal contamination. In general, external alpha radiation is not harmful since alpha particles are effectively shielded by a few centimeters of air, a piece of paper, or the thin layer of dead skin cells. Even touching an alpha source is usually not harmful, though many alpha sources also are accompanied by beta-emitting radio daughters, and alpha emission is also accompanied by gamma photon emission. If substances emitting alpha particles are ingested, inhaled, injected or introduced through the skin, then it could result in a measurable dose.

beamish said...
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beamish said...

My brother was a nuclear machinist's mate on aircraft carriers and submarines for 20 years in the Navy and now works in a civilian nuclear power plant here in the US.

If he's not panicking with hopelessness, I'm not going to.

Anonymous said...

The rods are melted and the Plutonium is exposed, if they do not arrive to fight the increase of the Temperature, the damages will reach the the outside by explosion,

They hesitate to mention that they are close to level 7.

Fortunately it makes a glacial cold there, the temperature is around minus 5 there, this level of temperature can decrease the propagation of the radiation by the particles of weather.

the next hours will be determinants.

SAM

Elmers Brother said...

Tour of Chernobyl anyone?

Elmers Brother said...

An average x ray is 90mrem.

perhaps this might help.

Exposure limits for nuclear workers are higher for than the general public. Right now the levels are 20 millisiverts per hour and the limit for the nuclear power workers is 100 per hour.

Elmers Brother said...

I must give some props to that yahoo article because they at least mentioned what the levels were. Most of these media twits are using ubiquitous terms like the levels are 'raised' or 'higher than normal' which doesn't mean jack unless you have it quantified.

Elmers Brother said...

to change rem to sieverts divide by 100

immediate life threatening doses are limited to levels of 100000 mrem and above

NRC Occupational Exposure Limits

Whole Body ----- 5,000 mrem/year
Skin ----- 50,000 mrem/year
Extremities ----- 50,000 mrem/year
Lens of the Eye ----- 15,000 mrem/year
Exposure to minors ----- 10% of above

How Much Radiation Is Dangerous?

This table shows the likely effects of total body radiation doses (measured in rem) to the humans.
1000 rem ---- An acute dose would cause immediate illness and subsequent death within weeks.
100 rem ---- Acute dose could cause illness such as nausea, and cancer in 5% of persons within several years.
5 rem ---- MPD allowed by the NRC for occupational exposure over one year. No likely effects at this level.
0.3 rem ---- Estimated yearly exposure to all individuals from natural sources such as radon and cosmic rays, commonly referred to as background radiation. There are no likely effects at this exposure level.

Anonymous said...

Elbro;

Do you remember the Russian reporter contamination (Plutonium) by the Putin's services in UK on 2008?

He lost all his hairs in 4 days and he dead, he was completely dried.

He was young, but when he dead he was looking 25 years older.

SAM

Z said...

Elbro, thanks, I just found it a little weird that ALL the experts are saying "It's not good but ...we don't see this becoming what the media's saying"...and the media's still saying the WORST POSSIBLE things..
They say the Japanese people are worried sick for hearing our newscasters and that's just plain not fair.
Who the heck are WE to tell the Japanese what's going on there and that their leaders are LYING?
The experts I heard today said 50 miles as the US is suggesting as a stay-away zone is way over doing it and that the Japanese guidelines are completely adequate.

Ducky, who the heck cares what Rush said? It's like gibberish reading it, anyway...what leftwing garbage dump did you pick it up at?
And Elbro's right....CONTEXT Ducky, you might understand a lot of things better if you read posts and consider context.

SAM's point about the very cold weather now (lots of snow) is a good one, that's possibly a saving grace. They are saying they could have electricity up very soon there and all could be much better soon.

I guess we'll know soon.

This might be the first time I've been glad I have no thyroid!

Elmers Brother said...

they used an alpha source and it was ingested. I'm not suggesting its not dangerous. What I'm saying is that alpha sources for instance do not pose a serious threat unless ingested or inhaled. Beta-gamma sources are point sources and the shielding requirements are different...for e.g. depleted uranium (lead) is used as a shield against Cesium. It's also used in airplanes and munitions.

The issue with the media is that they fail to give these distinction and blur definitions like radiation and contamination etc etc. Basically they're ignorant.

Elmers Brother said...

it was polonium vice plutonium which is also an alpha emitter

also most lethal is ingested or inhaled

Has anyone considered how much radiation was blown into the sky with all that nuclear bomb testing in the 50s and 60s? Compared to what's going on in Japan

Elmers Brother said...

Z I think it's just the ones with an axe to grind...I can't remember who but I can find out was on CNN I believe....he was called an expert but is nothing more than an anti nuclear activist

Elmers Brother said...

his name is Arnold Gundersen. CNN does not identify him as such or any of their other experts as having axes to grind.

Elmers Brother said...

Polonium is found in the food chain, especially in seafood and in cigarettes.

Elmers Brother said...

although Gunderson does have experience he's a consultant for anti-nuclear activists groups

FrogBurger said...

I'd rather err on the side of caution here.

However, the Chernobyl clouds came over my area in France and there's no major consequences on my health or my family members.

So Californians who freak out shouldn't.

On a side note, what a contrast between the Japanese, especially the nuclear plant workers and the Demorats of Wisconsin.

Elmers Brother said...

FB right. Any see the Japanese demanding their FEMA trailers?

Faith said...
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Faith said...

I grew up in Nevada during the time of the bomb tests at Yucca Flats. I remember my class being taken out to a hill at the edge of town so we could get a good view of one of the bombs going off. I remember being scared of radiation TOO -- the times were schizophrenic. We regularly got three and four-yolked eggs from chickens in the fallout area. We had fallout in the desert all around our town too although we weren't in direct range the way St. George, Utah was. The town was overrun for a while with fortune hunters with geiger counters who thought they were finding uranium. They left in a hurry when it was learned it was fallout. Nobody I know got sick. I'm 69 and no radiation-induced problems yet.

beamish said...

Where's everybody that said the Haiti earthquake was God's wrath last year?

Faith said...

Such things are always God's wrath but usually we can't know the specific reason for it, as in the case of Japan. We're due ourselves for God's wrath, in fact I'd say we've been under God's judgment for decades now, it's not as if we're going to escape while others suffer. It could and probably will get quite a bit worse, and it's possible to list quite a few reasons why we deserve it. In the case of Haiti the discussion got going around things we KNOW about Haiti that would have been provocations for such total devastation, particularly their voodoo practices, and the pact made by voodoo priests to drive out the French, and their lousy government and so on.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure about the Japanese earthquake and tsunami being "God's wrath". A couple of days ago I watched a YuoTube video about the Japanese earthquake and tsunami. I was completely shocked to see the date it had been posed ... May 2010. I can't find it on the site anymore ... it seems to have disappeared since ...so maybe "God" does work in miraculous ways indeed. Did somebody other tan go know the future?

Waylon

Faith said...

If God is all-powerful there is no way to avoid the conclusion that He acts in everything that happens. Either God has control of absolutely everything or He might as well not exist at all. If He has control over everything then what can destruction of any sort be but an expression of His displeasure? Again, we usually have no way of knowing the reason in any particular case.

beamish said...

If God is all-powerful there is no way to avoid the conclusion that He acts in everything that happens.

Sure there is. All-powerful doesn't necessarily mean all-active. A stick of dynamite has the power to blow up a car, but cars can blow up for other reasons, and we need not detonate dynamite to demonstrate its potential.

Either God has control of absolutely everything or He might as well not exist at all.

If so, God's existence is irrelevant, as being in control of everything means He's also in control of the actions that incur His wrath. Seeking God's favor and forgiveness is equally impossible and irrelevant, as God would be in control of those actions as well. In that sense, God is motivating and controlling the actions he later punishes. A cosmic puppeteer pretending to love and hate the puppets He controls.

If He has control over everything then what can destruction of any sort be but an expression of His displeasure?

Displeasure with His own active control over everything in the first place.

This senseless, all-controlling God you describe has serious self-esteem issues. A God worthy of nothing but contempt. We must spit upon and rebel against this tyrant at all costs if ever we are to try to be free from His sadistic games.

My argument against this view of God hasn't changed from last year. Haiti certainly has a proportionately higher number of Christians than Japan does. Yet the "God has smited the pagans" arguments bandied about for Haiti's earthquake are noticeably missing in the case of Japan.

Why is that?

Faith said...

Let me put it this way, then, beamish: what I said is Biblical, not merely a matter of logic, and I don't want to get into a logic-chopping argument with you about it.

beamish said...

My Bible seems to be missing that rather Satanic view of God, Faith.

Are you sure it's in yours?

beamish said...

If God is in control of everything, what could the Haitians or Japanese (also a part of "everything" allegedly under His control) have done to stop God's earthquakes and tsunamis from tormenting them?

Do they not, under God's alleged control, do only what God commands of them already, without choice on their part?

beamish said...

If this view of God controlling all is true, then is His judgement not in fact judging Himself?

Faith said...

Beamish, you need to learn a bit of theology, you have a false deterministic view of these things. God's sovereignty doesn't in any way eliminate our choice and responsibility. The Bible is full of such seeming paradoxes.

Yes, it's in the Bible:

Is 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Amo 3:6 ...shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

There's another I'm thinking of but can't find about how God turns the heart of kings to make them obey His will. Something like that.

And God hardened pharoah's heart.

Faith said...

To change God's will, to stop a tsunami or change its path, or any other kind of disaster, a nation should acknowledge God, confess and repent of sin, pray to Him for help. The way some US Presidents used to guide this nation to do in times of calamity before we got to be so secular.

Anonymous said...

But BHO does claim to pray and what if a single person refuses to acknowledge God? Then what?

Anonymous said...

Is it a simple majority 50 percent plus 1 Or perhaps 2 thirds of the nation

Anonymous said...

If there is a quantifiable way in which we incur God's wrath wouldn't it stand to reason that to avoid His wrath it could also be quantified? And what of the Christians who were killed? Were none of them "righteous" enough to have avoided God's judgment? Wouldn't it stand to reason that this interpretation of the character of God would make Him more like Allah, submit or die?

Faith said...

You can't logic-chop this. It isn't quantifiable if only because we can't know even a small part of the reasons for God's actions in any particular case, -- so how could we quantify a response to them? The Bible makes it clear that if a sincere REMNANT were to pray for the nation He'd hear. How many is a remnant? I don't know. Thousands? A few hundred? One? Depends on circumstances we aren't in a position to judge. Get to know the Bible, get to know God, get to know particular circumstances, and then maybe you can judge it yourself.

The Bible simply shows that God is sovereign -- in control -- over all things, AND that individuals are responsible for our actions. We don't have to be able to understand it all. God is too big for our minds. He gave us His word so we could know what we need to know. We don't need to know all these things you are asking about.

Faith said...

I don't get your "submit or die" bit either. Allah's followers are supposed to commit murder. Jehovah's followers may have to die at the hands of murderers if necessary. Death is not necessarily a punishment according to the Bible. God sometimes takes righteous people out of a bad situation through their dying. The death of Christians under some circumstances can be for the good of the Church -- "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church" said Tertullian, meaning if Christians die for the faith it draws others to God. You can't logic-chop this. Get to know the Bible.

Anonymous said...

Logic chop? I'm asking questions. Unless of course that is also forbidden?

If I were to use the logic you just suggested than everyone in Haiti who died may not have been judged but merely saved from a worse condition?

Anonymous said...

Seriously could you be more specific? Could you try using less of the tribal language of Christians and explain what is meant by the nation turning towards God? Are you suggesting a theocracy? What does a nation like this look like? How can we be assured that we could avoid God's wrath?

Anonymous said...

We don't need to know? But isn't faith the faith the evidence of things unseen. So then wouldn't faith also seem reasonable? Does not Romans suggest that one has no excuse when Creation itself is a demonstration of who He is? So why can't these questions be asked. Is Go not up to the scrutiny?

Anonymous said...

So if I have a responsibility to respond to God yet He controls how I am going to respond...???

Is it simply the Potter and clay? God hardening Pharoah's heart?

This seems like reasonable questions.

Would you prefer submit or be judged by an earthquake instead of 'submit' or die?

Anonymous said...

If it's not quantifiable then perhaps you could define then what a nation who 'acknowledges' God looks like?

Z said...

Faith is absolutely right.
If God is small enough to understand, He's not big enough to worship. But, nobody HAS to worship Him, or read Him, or anything.
The Scripture has answers to all these questions and take years of study to understand.

No, NOBODY wants a 'theocracy'...that almost made me laugh! So many people act as if Christians mean, by "revival", they want goose-stepping Nazi-Christians to walk down streets demanding YOU MUST BE CHRISTIAN! Ridiculous. This isn't Islam.

No, people turning back to the faith of the early days of America (until only maybe 50 years ago, frankly, when 'became much too smart for God') is honoring God, living by His Word....things went better then, they'd go better now. I see that in any small CHristian group (smaller than the country :-)...kinder, gentler, highly smart, some not so smart...microcosms of Americans who live their faith and have better. far more fulfilling, happier lives for it.

NOBODY has to believe ANYTHING!
Faith's scripture is well used...and it's not possible to understand.

God uses bad...
S Koreans, a very Christian country now, are going into Japan to help....who knows what their harvest might be? Just by their example of doing good for them...people seeing the comfort they are given by the Christian witnesses.
Or Franklin Graham, or Operation Blessing, one of the VERY first, if not THE first, groups to help Japan.

it's even said there are evil "princes" that are 'over' certain countries...and good "princes", too, in Daniel. Again, NOBODY has to believe this!! And nobody really cares too much if you do or don't, but it's fascinating stuff and MAN are things happening as described in the Book these days. whew

Z said...

...and, until I understood God when he said he's a 'jealous God' and that he does have wrath and demands our attention, I wasn't at peace with Him.
it took years. and years. and years.
I've never been in a better place than I am now, and I feel Him in 234987239487239487 ways every day.
astonishing.

Anonymous said...

well then if He is so hard to understand I find it rather ironic that her comments (assuming it's a she) seem to imply she knows that these earthquakes are a judgement from God.

And if the country were to return to this time you mention, Z, would then we be spared God's judgement?

If the Bible has the answer to this notion that somehow we could be spared God's judgement then specifically tell us what does that nation look like?

There is some irony in what I'm writing, I know it may be missed by some, but I'm trying to boil down this posit of Faith's and so far I think all I've heard is a lot of ambiguity and blind faith.

Given that Christianity seems reasonable what I've read so far seems like a bunch of cop outs.

Anonymous said...

what happened 50 years ago? Is there no one who 'honors' God today? or is there just not enough people who honor God? and what does this look like practically?

If Faith is able to determine that a nation can be judged then it seems the opposite must be true that there are things a nation can do to avoid God's judgement.

What are those things? If there's some formula by which this God as defined by Faith, will use an earthquake to judge a nation, that same God must also (at least one would think) provide a means to avoid it, no?

My reaction is that I think Beamish is much closer to this then Faith. Throwing meaningless terms around doesn't mean a thing to a non Christian. So tell me what does 'acknowldgeing' God look like? and at what point will we avoid an earthquake, tsunami, hurricane, tornado, flooding...etc.??

Anonymous said...

my analogy with Islam was that if you did believe then you would be spared an earthquake etc. similar to Islam's submit or die...see?

Z said...

anonymous, I've had all of your questions for YEARS, and there are no answers. You're giving this very good thought and I respect that very much. And I hurt for you because I have finally found such amazing peace the last few years. It's frustrating for me here because it's impossible to answer your questions in comments on a blog, believe me...really, believe me.

You may choose not to believe....I sure couldn't blame you!

It's only after actually reading and studying Scripture with others for about 10 years now, every single week, that I've come to this peace...that I've finally come to understand God's not our butler, that eternity in heaven is worth misery on earth, that some people will not see heaven.....
He wants all but knows some won't come.
I thought that all the 'excuses' we give God were SUCH a cop-out "Why's God always get the breaks? When it's good, he did it, when it's bad, he has a reason?" :-) Oh, man, I remember those days so well...and I shudder.

Have you read any C.S. Lewis? It helps me when someone so academic talks of all of this. "Mere Christianity" is a very good book.

hard to believe there are no answers we can understand, isn't it. That's why He's God and I'm just z.

I used to think people who asked questions like yours were smarter, more seeking, more intellectual, like I was!

Faith said...

How to avoid God's judgment? Wasn't I clear that it's sin that brings God's judgment? The Bible spells out what sin is, start with the Ten Commandments. Abortion is a big one here in the US, the murder of millions of the unborn. If we rolled back that law and confessed to God that we know it is sin, that would be a big start to avoiding His judgment.

If God is in charge of all things, then what else could an earthquake be, Anonymous, but His judgment? Sometimes it could be a warning, a hint of judgment rather than all-out judgment, but this one was pretty huge for that, and often bad things carry blessings with them too, but in itself I can't see that a devastating earthquake is anything but God's wrath.

An example from the Bible of a city that was spared God's judgment is Nineveh, not a nation but a city of millions, that repented when Jonah preached a warning to them that they were due for God's judgment.

Jonah 3:4-10 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

A few decades later judgment came to Nineveh anyway because they didn't keep up their repentant attitude. Were they a theocracy? No, they were one Assyrian city that for the moment believed the preaching of Jonah.

Do all have to repent? Go read about Abraham's discussion with God about how many would have to be righteous in the city of Sodom for God to spare it.

America was never a theocracy so there's no idea of making it into one either. There's always been a strong core of Christian believers.

I'm very glad to hear that South Korea is sending help to Japan, Z. They really are a Christian nation.

Anonymous said...

So you're saying prior to the abortion law and greater than 50 years ago we avoided God's judgement through natural disasters? If sin is the issue then give me an example of one country that could avoid God's judgement?

Anonymous said...

So if one believer is all it would have taken for God o spare Sodom, using that example would lead onetobelieve that there were no believers in Haiti or Japan.

Faith said...

Anonymous, the problem is that you know so LITTLE, it's like being asked to write the Bible all over again for you.

One nation that could avoid God's judgment? It's a relative thing, NO nation is that good, we're all sinners, it's a matter of degree. America was greatly blessed overall for a long time, and yet we had the Civil War, we've had disasters, it's never perfect. It can't be since the human race is fallen.

Japan too has been prosperous. Some people have a natural respect to God's laws more than others. I don't know enough about Japan or other nations to make the comparison though.

But the reason it seemed so obvious that Haiti's horrific destruction was God's judgment was that voodoo is HUGE there. Beamish said they're all Christians, but no, most of them are Catholics, but the Catholic Church in Haiti accepts the satanic religion of voodoo which is practiced by a majority.

It's not always so easy to say in any particular case, as I've said in this discussion over and over. We can know some of the sins of America that deserve judgment. The Civil War was often preached as judgment for the sin of slavery for instance. Abortion is a big one. If we legalize gay marriage that will certainly be a big one, and so on, but unless you know quite a bit about a nation such as Japan there's no way to guess at the causes.

Faith said...

Sigh. You can't make glib equivalences between things like that. God dealt with Nineveh differently than He dealt with Sodom.

Anonymous said...

So in other words you don't know.

Anonymous said...

But according to James if you break one commandment you've broken them all. So there are no degrees to one sin or another.

Anonymous said...

And if there are degrees of sins tell me which ones are the ones our nation should avoid to keep from incurring Gods judgement?

Anonymous said...

One the one hand you say we can't know the reason then purport to know the reason.

Anonymous said...

My glib statement was an absurdity to illustrate an absurdity.


Its the Socratic way.

Faith said...

But according to James if you break one commandment you've broken them all. So there are no degrees to one sin or another.

Not for individuals, but we're talking about nations.

Faith said...

You continue to mix apples and oranges, anonymous. Have a good day.

Anonymous said...

Really? You pronounced judgements on these nations because of their sin yet you can't tell me how they could avoid it? You make no sense at all.

Anonymous said...

yet the principle should still apply...no? The consequences, yes may be different.

Z said...

Faith, sadly, this is the truth "Anonymous, the problem is that you know so LITTLE, it's like being asked to write the Bible all over again for you."

That's what I was trying to say.
And it's not condescendingly meant, it's just a fact. The Bible is thick with meaning, thick with prophecy, thick with inference, etc.

People think GOD IS GOOD and that's that...and yes, He is good but He isn't always kind in OUR VIEWPOINT. Bad stuff happens all the time, as we all know!
Yet the deaths of friends who had faith and that of friends who had no faith has been so utterly remarkable to me that I see faith is so true and so ALIVE and important.
Divine Viewpoint is something we can only allude to, we'll not know what's behind it ...till maybe ever.

Anonymous said...

I don't doubt the divine nor that things happen for Gods purpose, good and bad. After all it rains on both the righteous and the wicked. What I doubt is Faiths interpretation of catastrophic events

Anonymous said...

If by studying the Bible as Faith suggests I'll find the answer why is there no answer to my question? She seems to know yet is either unable to express it without using Christianeze or suggesting that I dont know enough. I hear similar circular arguments from people who think you can do something to lose your salvation. They can't tell me what one must do to keep it nor what sins make you lose it

Faith said...

What question have I failed to answer? It seems to me I answered everything you asked, many times over even.

Faith said...

And please give me an example of Christianese since I have no idea what you are talking about.

Z said...

Anonymous, stop! "If by studying the Bible as Faith suggests I'll find the answer why is there no answer to my question?"

Gad, there are no human-available answers to some of your questions....should people stop believing because of that?
it's a leap of faith, I totally understand and sympathize with you...but there is an amazing 'net', trust me.
And that's READING and STUDYING, not alone, not once in a while...but hearing, talking, breathing it in, every day......I can't tell you why that happens, really.....they say it's the Holy Spirit, and I used to think that was crap...but, I get it now....not because someone said "okay..here's the answer"

Good luck to you......it's a tough road but gets no easier by fighting it, except it does pave the way for discussion and learning..maybe. I fought long and hard...as I said, I shudder to remember. it was cold out there.

Anonymous said...

Not knowing the answer Is exactly my point. What I heard from faith is that she had the answer.

Z said...

Anonymous, I see your point.

Pardon the rest of my 'stuff' I felt needed to be added....sounds like you're 'there' but question Faith's surety on things we don't have answers on....am I close?

Faith said...

I thought I was pretty cautious about sounding all that sure in most of what I said. The only thing I'm that sure about is that if God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent then He could prevent or allow any destruction; therefore destruction is God's judgment. That's pretty straightforward and it has Biblical support. Beyond that I speculated as to causes where we have some knowledge of sins that would provoke judgment. This is all so simple and straightforward I don't get the objections.

Z said...

Faith, I think you showed great restraint and I tend to agree with you about your comments.

Anonymous said...

We're only here for a little stay.
Don't worry; don't hurry,
And be sure to stop
And smell the flowers along the way.



§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§


Que sera sera.

Whatever will be will be.


§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§


Live one day at a time.

Don't worry about tomorrow.

Sooner or later we all die.

Accept reality:

Life never has been and never will be fair.

Live graciously and generously. Think of others first. Put yourself last. Remain hopeful, and endure whatever comes to the end.

Life is a game no one can win. It always ends in death. So what?

Life is a mystery to be lived: not a problem to be solved.


§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§


If we could understand God, He wouldn't BE God.


§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§


If you don't waste time worrying about what might happen, the scenery from the train on which you're travelling, will remain beautiful, intriguing and inspiring, until the very moment your train falls into the abyss because a bridge ahead was bombed, or had fallen apart from lack of proper maintenance.

§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§


LIVE your life. Don't WORRY about it.


§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§-§


And don't mind anyone's business but your own.

beamish said...
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beamish said...

Faith,

I think you're missing something HUGE.

In precisely 100% of all recorded instances of God's judgement in the Bible there is:

1. Justice - because the judgement from God came after a prophetic warning, a sufficient opportunity to repent to avoid the judgement, and absolutely no question of why the judgement came

2. Glory - because there was no question the judgement came from God and no mistaking it for anything else.

Haiti and Japan recieved no prophetic warning, were given no opportunity to repent of the transgression that justified it, and there's plenty of doubt whether it was God's active work or just a natural faultline shifting.

Earthquakes no where near a fualtline, fire raining from the sky, all the firstborn children slain - all after warnings that these events would come - that's God's judgement.

An earthquake on a faultline that shifts unexpectedly and without sufficient warning - that's NOT God's judgement.

God is not justified or glorified by Haitians and Japanese dying in droves due to a shifting faultline.

See the difference?

beamish said...

If Haiti and Japan's tragic events are the work of God, then God is neither justified nor glorified.

And if that is the case, we need to research weapon technology capable of locatingi and killing God before He has another psychotic episode.

Z said...

In the O.T., God let a lot of very bad stuff happen.....allowed people to do their thing and see how far they can go, and they didn't get too far.
God probably (none of us knows) doesn't cause disaster but he definitely uses them.

I think Daniel is fascinating (and dead boring at the same time!) where it states in Ch 11, I think?, that there are "princes" (devils under satan) who rule over (way over) countries....evil princes and good princes, and there's angel warfare over us.
who knows? I guess when we believe part of it, we must believe the whole shebang and that is what it says!
Who knows about evil princes wanted to harm Japan?

I know, I read myself back and it sounds like the ravings of a mad woman, but that's the Word! :-)

Faith said...

Beamish, the Bible is given to teach us how God operates, that's one reason prophecy was given.

I gave you scripture that shows God claiming to be the mover behind ALL things, not just the kinds of miraculous events you are describing. Prophecies of the destruction of Tyre and Babylon among others were fulfilled outside the Biblical account and not by anything miraculous. God's prophets also prophesied of wars and invasions by foreign nations. Those are also God's judgments. They aren't miraculous events. Read the litany of curses that God gives the Israelites in Deuteronomy and Leviticus that He says will come upon them if they disobey -- His judgments against them. They did come upon them because they did disobey. They mostly describe things like economic disaster and the success of enemies against them.

God is only glorified when He is recognized in events. If the natural world just does its thing without Him there's no way He gets glory from the natural world and He certainly gets none from the majority of the peoples of the world who don't believe in Him anyway.

If we've learned the lesson the Bible aims to teach then we ought to be able to apply the principles to the same kinds of events as we encounter them in our world now. We ought to be able to see God in them. There's no way He's NOT in them. How could there be ANYTHING in this world that escapes the power of the sovereign omnipotent God? That makes no sense.

In the Bible He gives warnings of judgments to teach us that He is in charge of all those events which would otherwise be a lot easier without His revelation to chalk up to merely blind natural causes even though you try to do that anyway.

Although we don't have prophets now, if Christians paid attention to cause and effect more we could recognize warnings from God now too.

I understand that people don't LIKE this idea. But that doesn't make it false.

Faith said...

It IS fascinating to think that every nation has its own demonic prince in charge of it. And horrifying too.

beamish said...

I just don't get the out-of-context leap you're making, Faith.

Let me put your argument to the test in other terms.

God could stop me from sinning, but He doesn't, because it is His will that I sin.

I'm doing God's will whether I sin or not, whatever I do, because only God's will happens.

If you disagree with that, then you are in fact agreeing with me that God doesn't control everything.

beamish said...

Unless of course God is making me sin, in which case he should judge me among His most faithful of servants.

Faith said...

That's a false bit of theology, Beamish. The one thing God can't do is sin or tempt us to sin. Sin is disobedience to God and God can't disobey Himself. Sin is the universe in rebellion against its Maker. Sin is the cause of all nature being out of whack. Sin is the reason for the tsunamis and so on. If we repent of sin God may hold back the destruction. But God can't sin or cause us to sin.

Actually God often does keep us from sinning. Things could be a lot worse both in the world and for us individually if He didn't.

I'm doing God's will whether I sin or not, whatever I do, because only God's will happens.

Didn't I already say that it isn't ONLY God's will that happens? Didn't I already say that we have choice and responsibility? Didn't I say this kind of paradox is Biblical? All evil came into the universe through the rebellion of God's creatures, first the angels who followed Satan and then the human race who fell for Satan's deception. Yes, God could have prevented it but God doesn't want automatons, He wants to be loved and worshiped freely, not because we have no choice. We CAN oppose God. That's about all we can do in our own strength really. You are making up the scheme of some kind of perfect determinism that I haven't argued for. But this stuff is very difficult to understand and to argue. Someone else could no doubt say it a lot better than I'm doing, I'm just trying to describe the most obvious effects of it as I understand them.

I know you hate Calvinism, right? Well, that is what this is all about. Calvinism says the human race is Totally Depraved, that we cannot choose the good because we are fallen since Eden. God has to supply grace so that we can believe and have faith in Him.

If I'm saying some of this wrong that would only be understandable. But I don't think there's much point in going further with this anyway. I've pretty much said everything I know on the subject.

Faith said...

The funny thing about Calvinism is that it isn't really any different from what Luther said. Luther said something like God's part in our salvation is HIs grace, our part is sin.

Faith said...

God keeping us from sinning. I've always believed that He did this once in my case. I was just becoming a Christian but still hadn't separated myself from all the other religions I still assumed all had the same basic goal. A Buddhist priestess friend of mine took me to meditation one day. We all sat crosslegged facing the wall for some period of time -- I was learning how to pray so I was praying -- and when it was over everyone turned around and prostrated themselves to the buddha statue in the middle of the room. Except me. Because my legs had gone so completely to sleep I couldn't even move. I credit God with that. But of course it was merely a natural event, nothing to do with God, right?

Anonymous said...

Maybe we could appease this god by throwing children in a volcano.

Faith said...

What I'm saying is pretty standard Reformed Theology. Here's someone who can say it better than I can: A W Pink in his classic, The Sovereignty of God. Apparently such standard theology isn't read much these days.

Faith said...

Very interesting to read Pink's forward to this book, as he is lamenting that few in his day (1918) tolerate this teaching on the sovereignty of God. So much less so now it seems.

beamish said...

Faith,

I just see a huge contradiction in your pointing out verses to say God "hardened Pharoah's heart" or "creates evil" yet "isn't responsible for sin."

You seem to come away from the Bible with a view on God that I find to be abhorrent and abominable. You even claim to recognize it as a paradox and contradiction. That isn't helpful.

I don't want any part of worshipping a paradox or contradiction. There is no justice in inconsistency, there is no glory in a God that "creates evil" for the purpose of casting His wrath upon it.

One of our views on God is dead wrong. I don't think it's mine.

The Bible is talking about one of our "Gods." I don't think it's yours.

Faith said...

That's fine with me, Beamish. I know I REALLY don't like YOUR weak and stupid God. We'll find out in the end which is the truth. Meanwhile, take a look at Pink's book on the subject that I linked above.

Anonymous said...

God simply is.

He is The Great I Am, and not subject to argument or intellectualization.

One proof of His Absolute power is that human opposition to His Truth never damages God in the least, but always creates turmoil, anger, heartbreak and depression in the lives of those who oppose Him.

His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

God is not merely a fabrication of human logic, and not subject to the power of human reasoning.

Accept that God - not you - is the ultimate authority, and life suddenly becomes a more harmonious, more hopeful, less contentious, less daunting affair.

beamish said...

Faith,

My God may be "weak" and "stupid" in your eyes, but at least He exists.

Your God self-contradicts itself out of existence and has babbling idiots thinking paradox is "mystery."

beamish said...

Why is your God making you an idiot, Faith?

beamish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beamish said...

My God has me looking for ways to help the people of Haiti and Japan in the aftermath of the earthquakes.

Your God has you saying it's His will that they suffer.

My God is just, merciful, righteous, and holy.

Your God is a sick, demented, psychotic asshole.

beamish said...

I guess my God has me cleaning up after your God.

beamish said...

God simply is.

God exists, yes.

He is The Great I Am, and not subject to argument or intellectualization.

Which means there is nothing contradictory or paradoxical about God.

One proof of His Absolute power is that human opposition to His Truth never damages God in the least, but always creates turmoil, anger, heartbreak and depression in the lives of those who oppose Him.

Or at least those who worship earthquakes and tsunamis.

His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

And His socks are not my socks.

God is not merely a fabrication of human logic, and not subject to the power of human reasoning.

But contradictory, self-serving views of God are.

Accept that God - not you - is the ultimate authority, and life suddenly becomes a more harmonious, more hopeful, less contentious, less daunting affair.

Indeed.

Anonymous said...

And why would God give or create me with an intellect and then tell me to ignore it?

Anonymous said...

"Amidst the mists and freezing frosts with loudest boasts and sternest jests he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he see the ghosts."

"... And we are here as on a darkling plain -|- swept by confused alarms of struggle and flight -|- where ignorant armies clash by night."

Anonymous said...

If by any chance God really is a selfish, inhumane, sadistic monster, who regards humanity as having no greater significance than a swarm of bees, or a herd of dinosaurs, there isn't a blessed thing anyone could do about it no matter how powerful his or intellect might be.

Hasn't anyone ever noticed ever noticed that despite humanity's most remarkable achievements in the fields of science, medicine and technology, we haven't yet learned how to stop trying to dominate, subjugate, enslave, otherwise limit and kill one another? Despite the discovery of vaccines and antibiotics, dread disease still stalks and threatens us everywhere, and most of our greatest inventions ultimately become tools in service to evil purposes.

Why is that?

Anonymous said...

no one is suggesting intellect alone is the answer but neither is some esoteric mumbo jumbo that ignores the brain that God gave us

beamish said...

If by any chance God really is a selfish, inhumane, sadistic monster, who regards humanity as having no greater significance than a swarm of bees, or a herd of dinosaurs, there isn't a blessed thing anyone could do about it no matter how powerful his or intellect might be.

Sure there is.

We could choose to challenge this cowardly God to live under the rules of his alleged game, and crucify his would-be proxies until it is forced to show itself.

beamish said...

no one is suggesting intellect alone is the answer but neither is some esoteric mumbo jumbo that ignores the brain that God gave us

Intellect is merely the agent of finding the answer, not the answer itself.

Intellect is strong enough to separate truth from "mumbo jumbo."

beamish said...

Intellect keeps the honest seeker from mistaking an earthquake for God's judgement.

beamish said...

And heart keeps the honest seeker from mistaking God's judgement for an earthquake.

Faith said...

Some of Pink's ruminations are a tad dated, especially when he gets into the capabilities of science as understood in 1918, but most of what he says still holds up. Here is his page where he considers the problem of God's sovereignty versus Human responsibility. I think he does a nice job on this.

beamish said...

You're either missing or ignoring the point, Faith.

The earthquakes in Haiti and Japan would have happened even if every single person there idolized natural disasters as fervently as you do.

Anonymous said...

Intellect is strong enough to separate truth from "mumbo jumbo."

Don't know how you could possibly say that when its patently obvious that intellect is entirely "values neutral." Like fire intellect can be used both for good and evil purposes.

Look at the legion of individuals with stratospheric IQ's who tout the Communist Party line. Look at the fabled organizational ability and the scientific and engineering prowess of the Germans, then look at the appalling tragedy of the Third Reich.

"Reason is but the slave of passion." Who said that? Was it Home? Does it matter?

I love the Burke quotation that says something to this effect: "He uses facts as a drunken man uses lamp posts -- for support not illumination."

"The partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions."

- Socrates (470-399 B. C. )

Socrates' sage observation, still fresh and highly relevant after 24 centuries, applies just as well to bull-headed individuals who never know when it's time to let go of an argument.

beamish said...

Intellect is strong enough to separate truth from "mumbo jumbo."

Don't know how you could possibly say that when its patently obvious that intellect is entirely "values neutral." Like fire intellect can be used both for good and evil purposes.

You probably don't encounter much in the way of logic, reason, and intellect down there in your klavern, FeebThinky.

When someone asserts that an earthquake is their God's judgement, and further that this alleged judgement from God finds its precedent in the Bible, they are making statements that can be analyzed intellectually.

Analyzing those statements intellectually finds them wanting, both in truthfully representing God via the Bible's narrative and in logic itself.

Faith's God has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible.

beamish said...

...and in fact slanders and blasphemes the God of the Bible.

beamish said...

i.e. God didn't smite Japan. An earthquake did.

Faith said...

Some more resources on the Sovereignty of God:

Believing that the earthquake is God’s doing doesn’t necessarily mean you have to understand why He did it. I don’t see how it could be anything other than judgment, myself, that makes it make sense to me, but it’s also reasonable simply to take the position that He did it and we don’t have to know why.

This is really Pink’s view of it too. I can accept that view of it, especially since I've said that even if it's judgment we aren't in a position to know more than part of the reason in most cases.

http://theveritasnetwork.org/2011/03/15/the-sovereignty-of-god-amidst-disaster/

We believe every single event, however apparently random and accidental, is part of God’s sovereign plan. Nothing is accidental, nothing happens by chance. Even those things that seem bad and harmful are pieces of a greater puzzle which we cannot see or understand.

God exists to glorify himself. He is just and right and worthy to do this. In the book of Job we learn that God isn’t obligated to reveal his divine will to us. Could we even comprehend it if he did? Faith in him is sufficient.


I also agree with this one:People who die in these disasters are not being judged for being worse than you and I. What judgment has fallen, we all deserve.

http://ardentcries.com/?p=2674

It IS God's judgment but we all deserve judgment. As I said I think the US is under judgment now and it's going to get worse.

Here’s another thought on the same theme by John Piper:

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/taste-see-articles/revolt-against-the-sovereignty-of-god

And here’s The Google page where you can find even more.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sovereignty+of+god+in+disasters&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7RNTN_en

beamish said...

Faith,

Discard Pink and glom on to an actual authority:

There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

This comes from the Book of Luke, Chapter 13. Perhaps you've heard of that guy Jesus.

Japan and Haiti were not stricken with earthquakes for being any less righteous or more wicked than you or me.

Faith said...

If you'd read one thing I've posted you'd know I've already acknowledged that -- in fact it's been acknowledged in at least half of my posts since the beginning of this benighted exchange. It's also been covered in a number of the websites I've linked. That is not the point and was never the point. Learn something yourself for a change.

beamish said...

Believing that the earthquake is God’s doing doesn’t necessarily mean you have to understand why He did it. I don’t see how it could be anything other than judgment, myself, that makes it make sense to me, but it’s also reasonable simply to take the position that He did it and we don’t have to know why.

Color me silly, but I'd like to know if God is in fact killing people with earthquakes, and why.

Certainly if God is just and glorious and worthy of being worshipped, it would be both apparent if and when He's killing people and the why of His reasons for doing so blameless and faultless.

Which points back to EVERY instance of God's judgement in the Bible.

God has NEVER judged anyone, or even put them to death, individual or nation, without advance notice and stating His reasoning for doing so.

To say He has is slander and blasphemy most foul.

Yes, if God is executing people, we DO have to know why.

If you don't know why God has done something, chances are you're accusing Him without evidence or proof of actions He had no hand in whatsoever. You're bearing the most false of witnesses against Him.

beamish said...

God is going to judge the whole world once more, simultaneously, in the end.

Absolutely no where in the Bible will you find a prophecy nor a defense of the idea that God is going to make tactical and surgical strikes on certain nations and individuals in the meantime before Christ comes back to do so.

The very idea behind your theology is a lie from the mouth of Satan himself.

Faith said...

You have been doing the blaspheming here from the beginning, and being dishonorable as a debater and obnoxious to boot. That said, the reason for all the links I supplied was to demonstrate that the opinion I hold is held by many worthy Christian theologians and other believers. You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your attitude of accusation and self-righteousness when you are talking to and about Christian brothers and sisters. I do, however, doubt that you are even a Christian at all, beamish. We've been here before and I know you can recite the right creeds but there isn't the slightest clue otherwise that you are a true believer.

To say that God had no hand in anything destructive is to say either that Nature is more powerful than God or that Satan is more powerful than God, whichever you attribute the cause to. That means we're all at the mercy of either Nature or Satan and God doesn't have the power to protect us from them. God MADE Nature, you know, He also made Satan. But you would have them more powerful than their Maker? Do you really want to say that?

This idea of advance notice I answered way up the thread. God gave prophecies IN THE BIBLE ONLY, about such things, for the purpose of teaching us how He operates. BY KNOWING WHAT HE TAUGHT THERE WE NOW CAN EXTRAPOLATE TO SITUATIONS WE FIND OURSELVES IN NOW. We have the Bible to show us what these things mean, we do not need special prophecy. If we know a nation has been murdering the unborn in the millions for decades we know that nation is due for judgment. AS A NATION == this is not about individuals. If we know what God said in Deuteronomy and Leviticus about the curses that would come upon Israel if they failed to obey as they promised, then we can guess when similar things are happening to us that that is God's judgment on us. Same with God's judgments against the nations surrounding Israel. He gave prophecies and He gave reasons for the judgment He prophesied. Again, God gave us the Bible so that we could figure such things out. You aren't thinking. We no longer have prophets, we have the BIBLE instead. That's how I know that God is sovereign over everything, and if you don't believe me then read Pink because he gives chapter and verse on all of it.

You just don't LIKE that idea of God because you can't understand it, so you're going to try to bully me or anyone who disagrees with you out of arguing with you with all your obnoxious accusations and evil talk.

If you REALLY wanted to understand whether God is behind the earthquakes or not you'd read Pink and some of the other links I put up and really think about it instead of calling me names.

beamish said...

God's sovereignty isn't in doubt.

Your self-righteous "That's what Haiti gets for being voodoo worshippers" or "that's what Japan gets for being Shintoist" is in doubt.

Do you REALLY witness for Christ with that superstitious bullshittery?

You'd stand preening yourself over Job, in his time of torment, and say "golly, you must have really pissed off God for this to happen to you?"

You're no better than those blasphemous "word of faith" pagans on TV that writhe on the floor and yip and yell like spastic animals who claim poverty itself is a punishment from God, that material wealth is a measure of "holiness."

You're dead inside, Faith. DEAD.

beamish said...

My reply preceding the one above disappeared. It's just as well, I can make the same point again without succinct four-letter words.

Here's a challenge for you, Faith.

Find me the Bible verse where God took down His rainbow and declared "My promise is cancelled, My covenant is void."

Show me, in the prophecies that Jesus will return to judge the whole world and establish His Kingdom on Earth, that until then God will anonymously torment the world with natural disasters without warning, without cause, without justification, and without bringing glory to Himself.

Tell me how you'd look any survivor of any tragic event in the eye and tell them their friends, families, and loved ones died because God hates their actions or their nation's actions.

Tell me how you'd claim al Qaeda was doing the Lord's work on 9/11.

I don't know what the hell your theology is, but it is not Christian.

Where the Bible warns of false prophets, it was talking about YOU.

beamish said...

Are you a part of the Westboro "Baptist Church" cult, Faith?

Faith said...
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Faith said...

More dishonorable lies and misrepresentations. Even a dishonorable accusation lumping me with Westboro, speaking of dishonorable debate. That's ok, I knew when you put up your dishonorable baiting post that it would probably be best not to answer it.

As for Westboro,
http://toolateforamerica.blogspot.com/2011/03/another-idiotic-supreme-court-ruling.html

Faith said...

This is my last post so you are free to decorate the rest of this thread with your evil talk.

Here I will repeat the scripture support I gave way back up the thread which ought to be quite sufficient to make my case but which you dishonorably ignored while dishonorably accusing me of whatever lie came into your head.

Is 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Amo 3:6 ...shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

There's another I'm thinking of but can't find about how God turns the heart of kings to make them obey His will. Something like that.

And God hardened pharoah's heart.

And there's plenty more along these lines at the links.

Faith said...

Pr 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Z said...

Beamish, I've got to ask; have you read the Old Testament???

beamish said...
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beamish said...

Faith,

You are blatantly and shamelessly robbing that verse from the 45th chapter of Isaiah out of its proper context and surrounding text when in context it and the chapter it appears in does not have anything to do with judgement, from God or anyone else.

And, perhaps in your crib quote from Pink or whoever on that single verse of Amos 3:6, you forgot to check your Bible:

"Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets." - Amos 3:7


Perhaps when you were slurping up out-of-context, incoherent garbage theology at the Westboro / Pink school of tornado worship, they didn't cover for you how to navigate through Bible study, but Amos 3:7 is the verse that comes right after Amos 3:6.

The Sovereign God's revealed plan to His servants and prophets alike is that Christ will return to judge the Earth and set up His Kingdom.

He did not reveal a plan that stated something like "Until Christ returns, I will anonymous smite whoever I feel like smiting."

What are you going to believe?

Crap theology from a fraud, or the Bible itself?

beamish said...

Z,

Of course I've read the Old Testament. Where do you think I got the view that God ALWAYS gives prophetic warnings and a shot at repentance before unleashing His wrath, leaving absolutely no question of why or even if He did unleash His wrath? The Old Testament set that precedent.

Where do you think I got the idea that God made an everlasting promise and covenant not to wipe life off the Earth with water (i.e. with a flood or tsunami)? Ditto from the Old Testament.

If God is unchanging, always just, always holy, and the last prophecy given is that Christ will return to judge the Earth, any earthquake, any fire, any terrorist attack not preceeded by the return of Jesus upon the Earth IS NOT A JUDGEMENT FROM GOD.

QED.

Z said...

Beamish....that's true, many died in the old testament because of God's wrath, but he DID always give some kind of warning...

The thing is, we don't know what "just" really is...His 'just' can be different from ours.

"Any terrorist attack not preceeded by the return of Jesus upon the Earth IS NOT A JUDGEMENT FROM GOD."

Could you explain that with a little Scripture? I'm unclear about what you mean.

Anonymous said...

It's time someone finally corrected a flagrant, oft-repeated misspelling:

There is only ONE "E" in J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T.

J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T
J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T

beamish said...

Z,

I was making an oblique reference back to the neo-Nazi Nesta Webster / Eustace Mullins / Pat Robertson New World Order conspiracy theorists who step a little past their kooky leftist and cryptoleftist brethren's standard "9/11 was an inside job" garbage to say God sent al-Qaeda to strike us over abortion / homosexuals / Pokemon / rock and roll / etc.

Remember when Pat Robertson was trying to upsell the 9/11 hijackers as the couriers of God's wrath? A judgement from God because of gays on TV and such?

If I remember correctly, even Jerry Falwell got in on that as well, but to my knowledge Falwell has never lavishly cited unapolegetic anti-Semitic neo-Nazi scumbags like Webster and Mullins to write a book about the "New World Order" as Robertson has.

And look who it set off on judgement of spelling errors to distract the topic?

We're getting close to the Jabberwock, as it were.

Trifecta if I can work in a Ron Paul nod. Or did I already?

Snicker snack.

My point is that claiming a terrorist attack like 9/11 is a judgement from God upon an entire nation for [insert Biblical transgression here] is as equally ludicrous and false as claiming that about an earthquake or tsunami.

Especially when the only prophetic message we have is that Christ will return to mete out and dispense God's judgement.

If you don't see Jesus building a Kingdom in Jerusalem after slipping in the bathtub or getting caught in a hurricane or earthquake, it's not a judegement from God.

beamish said...

hehehehe that was eeegreeejus.

beamish said...

Quick show of hands...

Who knows what a "furtive fallacy" is?

Elmers Brother said...

Not a fan of the NWO Beamish?

Z said...

Well, Beamish, I think we DO have other messages in the O T and N T with pretty clear rules about acceptable behavior which tell us that if we do certain things, God's not happy and we'll learn about that unhappiness in unpleasant ways.

as for the spelling lesson; who else could it be.
A. who could that possibly bother so much that he'd do this.
B. Who would have enough ego to think he needs to teach someone as bright as you ANYTHING? or at least more than once?
"anonymous"...

beamish said...

Elbro,

I always ask people who fear a "new" world order how many world orders there should be before we've met quota.

(There's currently ten world orders)

That line usually goes over people's heads, but that's okay.

But more to the point, I reject the root anti-Semitism that forms the framework and common theme of every hokey, furtive fallacy-fueled [United Nations / international bankers / Tri-Lats / Bilderburgers / Illuminati / Freemasonry / Zionists] "control everything" conspiracy theory.

I guess that makes me an openly secret member amd active part of the conspiracy in the minds of those locked in a furtive fallacy.

I like NWO conspiracy theories because they're hilariously absurd, but people who believe and put stock in them really creep me out.

That's because ALL of these NWO conspiracy theories came from the minds of rahter disgustingly obsessed Jew haters. Pat Robertson's "New World Order" book is practically a plagiarism of fascists like Nesta Webster, Eustance Mullins, and Ezra Pound.

It's a sickness.

Elmers Brother said...

I agree Beamish. I had one of those nuts on my blog. One paranoid anti semitic bag of cheese whiz.

beamish said...

Well, Beamish, I think we DO have other messages in the O T and N T with pretty clear rules about acceptable behavior which tell us that if we do certain things, God's not happy and we'll learn about that unhappiness in unpleasant ways.

This isn't in doubt. Everyone will be judged before the Throne of God when they die.

I'm focused primarily on the natural disasters = wrath / judgement of God concept.

I find no support in the Bible for the idea that before Christ comes back, God's going to anonymously and / or mysteriously kill people en masse with the forces of nature and leave people speculating why.

Jesus answered this in Luke 13 quitre clearly, and the whole book of Job itself is a contemplation on it. Job's friends were utterly convinced that Job had some sin he was hiding that moved God to strike him with all manner of tragedies and ailments. Jesus alluded to the beliefs that those that died when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them were not merely unlucky but specifically targeted for death by God for greater sins than those that survived. Jesus shot these ideas down.

Will God judge America for legalizing abortion? Probably, at the end of America and all other nations, when Christ comes back.

If I die in a tornado this summer with ten, a hundred, a thousand others, is it God judging America for abortion, or just a tornado? I don't have anything to do with abortion, I'm not equipped to have one even if I wanted one, and I disapprove of and oppose abortion. If I die in this hypothetical tornado, is it because of abortion in America, really?

How about an earthquake. What if the New Madrid faultline goes spastic and St. Louis crumbles to rubble into the Mississippi River killing hundreds of thousands of people (we're long overdue for an earthquake here and no where near ready for one) - God's judgment or just an earthquake?

Will people say, "St. Louis was wiped out because GOD HATES ____?"

Again, back to Job. God dealt pretty harshly with Job's friends for that attitude. He wouldn't even hear their prayers for forgiveness unless Job offered them!

Elmers Brother said...

Its a cognitive dissonance Beamish. You're right to call it an illness

Anonymous said...

God, of course, is Jewish.

That explains all of it.

'Nuff said.

beamish said...

What gave it away? The secret Hebrew name?

Anonymous said...

Yaw Weh is not My Weh, and Yaw Thawts are not My Thawts.

beamish said...

cognitive dissonance indeed, Elbro.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice ... the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Get a life, FeetStinke.

Anonymous said...

And what sort of life could a young man like you possibly have, B. Emmish, spending so much of your valuable time befouling these boards incessantly with your verminous, libelous, ever more mendacious presence, and toxic, malodorous droppings?

That you obviously have nothing better to do than bait and bully selected "victims" on the internet speaks very poorly for your quality of life. If you weren't such a determinedly unpleasant piece of goods, I'd feel sorry for you.

Unfortunately, your name is Legion. Like fleas, ticks, lice and bedbugs in the physical world vermin of your sort is all too common on the internet -- another of many regrettable aspects of modern American life.

beamish said...

I have enough time to make sure I'm not lingering on blogs I've been asked not to post on, FeetStinke.

I don't charge you with anti-Semitism and racism without cause. You provided the links and copy and pastes from white supremacist websites yourself.

I also don't charge you with being an asshole without cause either. I certainly don't make you come to a blog you've been asked to depart from to insult and call the host a "slut" and a "bitch."

Save you pedantic pity for yourself, you classless loser. You're the one obsessed with having the last anti-Semitic word, not me.

Save it for someone who gives a shit what you think. You're not finding any of those around here.

beamish said...

I know I'd avoid places I felt "baited" and "bullied" - especially places that have clearly asked me to leave and never return.

The only lingering vermin here is you, FeetStinke.