By Pat Boone
"We're no longer a Christian nation." - President Barack Obama, June 2009
" America has been arrogant." - President Barack Obama
"After 9/11, America didn't always live up to her ideals."- President Barack Obama
"You might say that America is a Muslim nation."- President Barack Obama, Egypt 2009
Thinking about these and other statements made by the man who wears the title of president. I keep wondering what country he believes he's president of.
In one of my very favorite stories, Edward Everett Hale's "The Man without a Country," a young Army lieutenant named Philip Nolan stands condemned for treason during the Revolutionary War, having come under the influence of Aaron Burr. When the judge asks him if he wishes to say anything before sentence is passed, young Nolan defiantly exclaims, "Damn the United States ! I wish I might never hear of the United States again!"
The stunned silence in the courtroom is palpable, pulsing. After a long pause, the judge soberly says to the angry lieutenant: "You have just pronounced your own sentence. You will never hear of the United States again.. I sentence you to spend the rest of your life at sea, on one or another of this country's naval vessels - under strict orders that no one will ever speak to you again about the country you have just cursed."
And so it was. Philip Nolan was taken away and spent the next 40 years at sea, never hearing anything but an occasional slip of the tongue about America. The last few pages of the story, recounting Nolan's dying hours in his small stateroom - now turned into a shrine to the country he foreswore - never fail to bring me to tears. And I find my own love for this dream, this miracle called America , refreshed and renewed. I know how blessed and unique we are.
But reading and hearing the audacious, shocking statements of the man who was recently elected our president - a young black man living the impossible dream of millions of young Americans, past and present, black and white - I want to ask him, "Just what country do you think you're president of?"
You surely can't be referring to the United States of America , can you? America is emphatically a Christian nation, and has been from its inception! Seventy percent of her citizens identify themselves as Christian. The Declaration of Independence and our Constitution were framed, written and ratified by Christians. It's because this was, and is, a nation built on and guided by Judeo-Christian biblical principles that you, sir, have had the inestimable privilege of being elected her president.
You studied law at Harvard, didn't you, sir? You taught constitutional law in Chicago ? Did you not ever read the statement of John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and an author of the landmark "Federalist Papers": " Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers - and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation - to select and prefer Christians for their rulers"?
In your studies, you surely must have read the decision of the Supreme Court in 1892: "Our lives and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian."
Did your professors have you skip over all the high-court decisions right up till the mid 1900's that echoed and reinforced these views and intentions? Did you pick up the history of American jurisprudence only in 1947, when for the first time a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson about a "wall of separation between church and state" was used to deny some specific religious expression - contrary to Jefferson 's intent with that statement?
Or, wait a minute: were your ideas about America 's Christianity formed during the 20 years you were a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ under your pastor, Jeremiah Wright? Is that where you got the idea that " America is no longer a Christian nation"? Is this where you, even as you came to call yourself a Christian, formed the belief that "America has been arrogant"?
Even if that's the understandable explanation of your damning of your country and accusing the whole nation (not just a few military officials trying their best to keep more Americans from being murdered by jihadists) of "not always living up to her ideals," how did you come up with the ridiculous, alarming notion that we might be"considered a Muslim nation"?
Is it because there are some 2 million or more Muslims living here, trying to be good Americans out of a current population of over 300 million, 70 percent of whom are Christians? Does that make us, by any rational definition, a "Muslim nation"?
Why are we not, then, a "Chinese nation"? A "Korean nation"? Even a "Vietnamese nation"? There are even more of these distinct groups in America than Muslims. And if the distinction you're trying to make is a religious one, why is America not "a Jewish nation"? There's actually a case to be made for the latter, because our Constitution - and the success of our Revolution and founding - owes a deep debt to our Jewish brothers.
Have you stopped to think what an actual Muslim America would be like? Have you ever really spent much time in Iran ? Even in Egypt ? You, having been instructed in Islam as a kid at a Muslim school in Indonesia and saying you still love the call to evening prayers, can surely picture our nation founded on the Quran, not the Judeo-Christian Bible, and living under Shariah law. Can't you? You do recall Muhammad's directives [Surah 9:5,73] to "break the cross" and "kill the infidel"?
It seems increasingly and painfully obvious that you are more influenced by your upbringing and questionable education than most suspected. If you consider yourself the president of a people who are "no longer Christian," who have "failed to live up to our ideals," who "have been arrogant," and might even be "considered Muslim" - you are president of a country most Americans don't recognize.
Could it be you are a president without a country?
Z: Please, no comments about Boone...we know here at geeeZ that shooting the messenger is our leftist trolls' favorite go-to when the information's tough to besmirch, but let's try to discuss this with civility and maturity. Bill O'Reilly told a Muslim ex Ambassador to Pakistan tonight on his show that if the guy watched the hearings by Peter King tomorrow and found anything at all untoward, McCarthy-like (silly, because McCarthy was right, but ill mannered and unprofessional), or in any other way objectionable, that he should call the show and he would have him on to air his views. WOULD that a leftist program would even attempt to be that fair on any subject. I thought the remarks about Vietnamese nation or Korean nation made a lot of sense....why doesn't Obama use those terms when there are so many more of those minorities?
geeez
54 comments:
Seems to take too many steps avoiding the draw of Occam's razor for the less complex explanation for Obama's inarticulateness.
Don't impugn the man's motives. He's probably too stupid to have any.
Obama's speeches reflect his agenda of establishing a new world order.
"The Man without a Country," a story that promoted American patriotism, used to be required reading in America by the end of middle school. Is the story required reading now? I don't think so -- although my middle school class read the story this year. The story does make a powerful impression.
Come on, let Obama have his dream.
We all have dreams and aspirations of the perfect world for our children. We all have our own vision of utopia.
His is one of an Islamic state where all is right under Sharia law. What father of two girls wouldn't want them to grow up in a nation of Islamic law?
Don't be such a killjoy Z.
Obama never has and never will consider America his country, (not until he "changes it fundamentally") and that stems both from his time under Sharia and the Black Liberation church he spent 20 years in and yet somehow missed every G-D America sermon.
I don't know what Boone's screed has to do with King's hearings but I would like your reaction to the fact that King did not permit testimony by law enforcement concerning Mslim cooperation in investigations.
As for being a "Christian nation", you come dangerously close to theocracy.
because he hates America..plain and simple. Have a great rest of the day my friend~!:)
Beamish, I hope he's too stupid. I used to think so but see quite a cunning in him lately...
AOW, it is all about New World Order...America's crap under the Harvard elitist feet and they must change it BIG TIME.
Did that guy really live on a ship as punishment, AOW?
Chuck, :-)
Brooke....super comment...not only did he miss that sermon but, if it was SO unusual for Wright to say things like, you think nobody'd have told him about it? :)
Ducky, cooperation by muslims is not denied by King or anybody else!
By the way, you mean CHRISTIAN theocracy or are you finally agreeing with us about islam and Sharia Law, because I sure see no signs of Christian theocracy here, nor have there ever been, of course.
The mistake people like you make is believing CHristians, the huge majority in this country, have no right to vote or talk reflecting their values.....it's a silly mistake. But, do NOT WORRY, more and more of you are being spawned and indoctrinated to hate America...THAT is something so far worse than a theocracy I have no word for it. No country survives after teaching small children the ills of its past before they understand its inherent greatness at least as well as the countries it's saved do...just wait, you'll get your way and will be in fittings for a Mao jacket before you know it.
I'm still waiting for Christian goose steppers to charge down every street and tell everyone they need to be Christian. I have a feeling it'll be done in the coming years, but it won't be by Christians.
ANgel, thanks...same to you
Z,
I don't think the Obama administration is "cunning." All I see is a bunch of amateurs trying to wing it with bullshittery.
As for Philip Nolan "really" living on a ship... according to the story, yes - but Philip Nolan is a completely fictional character in a story written to promote a sense of American union as a nation during the Civil War era.
Which is a nice way of saying it was once government-sponsored propaganda.
I don't know what Boone's screed has to do with King's hearings but I would like your reaction to the fact that King did not permit testimony by law enforcement concerning Mslim cooperation in investigations.
What would be the point of having law enforcement discuss their confidential informants in fighting terrorism in the context of a hearing on the radicalization of Islam?
The hearing is not to find "if" Islam is being radicalized, but "how" and "why."
beamish, I completely agree with you about law enforcement. But, of course, that would be fantastic fodder for the NY Times...tell it ALLL.
As it is, every time we capture one, and they've been more and more frequent, we give so much detail about how we caught them (we infiltrated for 2 years, he bought stuff at the store, he did this, we did that....) it's like a primer for terrorists of what NOT to do NEXT TIME. Amazing.
And it's our news cycle which demands we get every bit of news out of a story so they can fill their time and sell ad space.
I think our country would be so much better off with NEWS AT SIX, FILM AT ELEVEN. Man, I long for those days ...but that's when everyone could read and think over the newspapers, not like what lib teachers and uncaring parents have perpetrated today, that's for sure. Home schooled kids, sure, they get it. I'm just hoping that little 10% (?) of homeschooled kids are nearly as indoctrinated as the left's done with the remaining 90% but I think most home school parents have integrity. DARN :=)
That's true, Z.
But put idiots like Ducky in charge of investigating terrorist agendas (er wait, we already did) and we'll get something like:
"The people responsible for 9/11 died in the plane crashes."
If one assumes cultural continuity, even as we acknowledge important differences among members of a culture, then we cannot assert Barack Obama has ever been one of us.
"If civilians are killed in an attack on a military installation, it is certainly regrettable, but I will not morally blame the IRA for it.”
--- Peter King (R - Phobic)
=================
I live smack on the Charlestown border Beamish and let me tell you, King wasn't to interested when the boyos were running guns to the IRA to fight "British imperialism".
The guys a fraud and a two bit McCarthy clone.
Obama and his liberal cronies, and that includes his wife, have absolutely no love for this nation otherwise who would stand up for it and it's Christian heritage instead of always apologizing to everyone he encounters.
No criticism about Pat Boone, not a fan of the music, but a fan of the man. God bless him.
As usual, the leftist slug doesn’t provide any context. King also said, “It is hard to see what the justification is for the continued existence of the IRA.”
We are sadly left with the proposition that Ducky is a fraud and a two-bit Stalinist clone.
Obama has an agenda that is distinctly different from any president we have ever witnessed in the Oval office.
I live smack on the Charlestown border Beamish and let me tell you, King wasn't to interested when the boyos were running guns to the IRA to fight "British imperialism".
King became a US Congressman in 1993. By that time the IRA was all but dried up to less than a hundred Catholic radicals.
On the other hand, Islamic radicals have been a rather extensively active in terrorist organizations.
Currently the overwhelming majority of organizations and entities on the US State Department list of terrorist organizations are radical Islamist groups or Muslims that have specifically targeted, attacked, and killed Americans. This has been true for decades.
The same is true of the overwhelming majority of organizations and entities recognized as terrorist organizations by the international community. This is a fact that has also been true for decades.
The guys a fraud and a two bit McCarthy clone.
Given that McCarthy's fight against Communist activities on US soil was largely vindicated by the interception of the Venona cables, and the facts I listed above considering the overwhelming likelihood that radical Islamist groups dominate any nation's lists of designated terrorist organizations and entities, wouldn't it be a easier case to make that King is not a fraud and you are a 24-karat imbecile?
Sure, Ducky, there's a regular "Crescent Moon Scare" raging in the United States with people accused of being radical Islamic terrorists without much concrete evidence.
As is the case with any leftist, I can not have an intellectually honest, respectful, productive discussion with you until you're willing to admit that you're a blithering idiot.
3 month before the presidential elections on 2008, Obama's team started the negociations with Ahmadinejad in Netherland.
both Groups agreed to propagand that, BUSH is the only BARRAGE of the peace between Islamic Iran and the west.
If we replace BUSH with OBAMA, the peace and security will be installed in the Midle east.
SAM
BTW, Ducky - You need to get ahold of Congressman Keith Ellison [D - Hamas] and let him know his message's effectiveness is massively diminished if he can't compress his histrionic sobbing to fit into a 15-second sound bite.
Too much faux choking up and snot-snorting between syllables, neutered by reading from a page.
He'd have been better off making a speech without the sound effects.
Beamish you said...
Sure, Ducky, there's a regular "Crescent Moon Scare" raging in the United States with people accused of being radical Islamic terrorists without much concrete evidence."
You're being sarcastic, right?
You bring up such a good point (if you are)...I'm not sure I've ever heard of any muslims accused of any terror actions that haven't been proven. When people talk about the horrible feelings toward Muslims in America, I always think "WHERE?" ANd, by the way, Beamish...don't you find it odd that it's was only AFTER 9/11 that Muslims started calling such attention to themselves? Who gave a hoot before that about people here of other religions??
Suddenly, muslim kids couldn't possibly study with dirty feet...muslim butchers couldn't bring themselves to cut pork, muslim cabbies won't take booze or dogs in their taxis...........when that was never an issue before.
Why do you think that is?
SAM.....from your lips to GOd's ears. America would be better off altogether if we had BUsh back and Obama OUT.
Beamish...what speech?
Man, I've been gone all day and missed the news...how'd the hearings go? I"m eager to hear the media's BS take on them......or maybe I'm not.
z;
you said: << SAM.....from your lips to GOd's ears. America would be better off altogether if we had BUsh back and Obama OUT.>>
My Answer is:
I'm not American and I will not answer your directional question.
But, I would say, The world would be better off alltogether if we had BUSH back and OBAMA out.
SAM
Z;
and I can prove What I said.
SAM
Hi,SAM.
Mine was not a question to you it was exactly what you said back to me....the world would be better with Bush back and Obama gone.
I completely agree with you.
I can prove it to you, too, as far as America's concerned, but I'm sure you could prove it better for your part of the world.
Z,
Of course I'm being sarcastic. When am I not? :P
I can't help it. When my wit speeds circles past intellectual tortoises like Ducky, sometimes I like to stomp a staccato of reminders on them for extra penetration.
Ducky and his fellow imbeciles on the left imagining King is McCarthy reincarnated or that there's anything untoward like the over the top excesses of the Red Scare days in holding a hearing on Islamic radicalization is so slow-witted it's predictable, in ways beyond the usually, daily, undeniable slow-wittedness of leftists.
If you can stomach CNN tonight (unfortunately it's the only news channel I have on basic cable) I'm sure they'll play Keith Ellison crying and sobbing about some Muslim emergency worker that died trying to rescue people in WTC Towers. As if there were some government effort to condemn a first responder for being a Muslim.
It's sick.
But ineffective grandstanding nonetheless.
Thanks, Beamish...I wonder if he slobbered over the non muslims who died, too? Yes, it's VERY effective if one watches and can't THINK.
I'll have to see that...holding my nose, of course.
Actually, I do watch some CNN now, every time Shep Smith's on FOX and I feel like some news. I'm less mad at CNN than him.
Watching Jim Lehrer Views Hour on PBS right now, and Ellison is a guest panelist...
But Z;
in this part of the world, a good part of the people beleive that the American President is never elected by the American people.
they say that, the American people are directed to elect the chosed president.
The big interests chose always the American president.
So, with OBAMA, of course the USA is no longer the superpower, which is not important for the BIG interests.
SAM
"Is it because there are some 2 million or more Muslims living here, trying to be good Americans out of a current population of over 300 million, 70 percent of whom are Christians? Does that make us, by any rational definition, a "Muslim nation"?
Hardly ...currently we have a population of around 5,664,000 Jews in America. Does that make us a Jewish state like Israel?
Israel itself: "According to Central Bureau of Statistics data published on Tuesday, the population of the State of Israel at the end of 2005 was comprised of 6,990,700 people, of which 5,313,800 were Jewish (76 percent of the entire population), and 1,377,100 were Arab (19.7 percent) according to data published by the Central Bureau of Statistics.
The data also showed that since 2000, the Jewish population has decreased by 1.8 percent, while the Muslim population has increased during the past five years by 1.1 to 1,140,600."
I firmly believe that the figure of 70% Christian in this country is way too low! Discounting atheists and other religions....America seems to be about 90% Christian. It matters not if they attend a church...what matters is that they hold fundamental beliefs that are Christian in nature. And that these same people shape their lives on or around the 10 Commandments with the exception of tribalistic excrement who choose to be outlaws, murderers and born killers.
Our moooslim outlaws hold these beliefs in contempt and derision.
It's clear that they're so called "religion" does not respect fundamental rights to live freely. And to espouse their beliefs in Christ.
Rise up....voice up.....resist the scum that ( the minority ) that want to crush America.
Yes...we need to rescue the term of "Onward Christian soldiers" in order to survive.
Don't get me wrong, Major. I'm disturbed by my sister's decisions for precisely the trends and circumstances you cite.
And don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree that the purpose of the military is to destroy the enemies of the United States of America. In fact, I'd say that directing the military to do just that is one of the few legitimate functions of our government besides delivering the mail.
But my passionate case for our civilization to plead with her, my "cross to bear," is a lot easier without "kill-all-Muslims" being screamed over my shoulder, that's all.
As for being a "Christian nation", you come dangerously close to theocracy.
That has got to be one of the most stupid statements of all times. Care to offer some proof or are you , as usual, just BSing or is that Duckpoopin. Your stupidity never ceases to amaze me.
"But my passionate case for our civilization to plead with her, my "cross to bear," is a lot easier without "kill-all-Muslims" being screamed over my shoulder, that's all."
Believe mr Mr. Beamish...I swear I understand your situation. Try this....in battle...or in a conflict...we wish that we had the ability to distinguish between combatants and...well "non combatants."
Islam has declared war upon the United States and it's citizens, Mr. Beamish...it's simple to me and most Americans...your sister belongs to a political enterprise / organization that demands and wants the demise of this Republic....our democracy which we all know is consistent with Islamist ideology.....and I have to make her as an exception?
Mr. Beamish with al due respect...this is exactly the conundrum that we face as free Americans.
Your sister, unfortunately haas embraced slavery, has embraced an ideology that is anathema to America.
I wish her well...but the fact is...she has chosen a life of slavery and compliance over women by a completely hateful ideology...especially of women.
I've spent to many years of my life trying to rationalize why women would subject themselves to Islamist slaveyy...to the hardships, the simply mocking as a lifestyle choice.
Your sister unfortunately...has abandoned her rights as human being...a woman and an individual.
Her acceptance of Islam...has made her a slave...a non entity.
As for my "objectivity on the evils of Islam" -
An Islamic Jihad / Hezbollah terrorist killed my childhood best friend's older brother in the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut back in 1983.
Back in 1991, my older brother was harrassed in Saudi Arabia for quietly reading his Bible in public while waiting on layover to be flown to his aircraft carrier during Desert Storm. His US Navy uniform probably spared him jail, if not his life.
A Palestinian suicide bomber maimed an aquaintance of mine at a bus stop in Tel Aviv, ending her modelling career.
My oldest brother's destroyer's patrol mission was officially relieved by the USS Cole just days before the bombing in 2000.
I don't know if still caring about my sister despite her conversion to Islam destroys my "objectivity on the evils of Islam" or not.
I'm not naive. I just tend to think a sniper rifle is better than a nuke. "Kill all Muslims" is just crazy talk.
I don't think anyone in the military with that attitude will be placed in positions of command, or even should be.
SAM... you said "So, with OBAMA, of course the USA is no longer the superpower, which is not important for the BIG interests."
Obviously, we do have elections and the people vote, but yes, the big interests donate the money and only 2 run for office and those 2 are usually nobody anybody I know would actually select...
We're no longer a superpower because of the idiotic money borrowing and the fact that the leftwing in this world didn't like Bush going into Iraq to fight there.
If it wasn't for our leftwing and the FACT that your news source people don't actually report, they just translate and publish our leftwing news from the New York Times in their papers (especially Germany, I've seen this many times) so you aren't getting all the truth, we'd be much better off.
Europeans believe the leftwing and that's a big problem, too.
They probably think most of us like Obama! THAT is NOT TRUE
Off Topic: What really bugged me tonight was seeing Sarah Palin basically say she doesn't much care who portrays her in the upcoming film but that they should pay for her kid's braces if they're going to make money being her.
She makes HUNDREDS of thousands on speaking engagements and TV shows, and whatever else and when she says things like that,I"m even more done with her.
Beamish, you like Palin? It's sad because she says good things about loving this country, using conservative methods of keeping it going, but then she said "And maybe I'll consider running if nobody else can take the job on!" (i paraphrase but that's the meaning) I wish she'd stop turning me SO off.
Major,
Islam has declared war upon the United States and it's citizens, Mr. Beamish...it's simple to me and most Americans...your sister belongs to a political enterprise / organization that demands and wants the demise of this Republic....our democracy which we all know is consistent with Islamist ideology.....and I have to make her as an exception?
How does a religion shared by over a billion people in the world from every ethnicity on the planet "declare war" on anyone? Islam, as a whole, is more heirarchically disorganized and institutionally prone to petty internal bickering than the Baptist church down the street from my home.
Most people killed by Muslims are in fact Muslims themselves.
As for making my sister an exception to your genocidal fantasies, I'll just point out that she teaches English to schoolchildren in Egypt, after two years of teaching herself how to speak, read, and write Arabic.
Last I checked, promoting English language skills wasn't on Osama Bin Laden's agenda.
Z,
I liked McCain over Bush in the 2000 primaries. McCain's spiteful aisle-crossing antics on the sidelines and in the media during Bush's eight years made me comfortable with Bush's winning the nomination in 2000.
When it came down to McCain, Romney, and Huckabee, the decision for McCain became a lot easier, and when he selected Palin to run with him, support for McCain became a no-brainer, especially when the KKK and Weather Underground wings of the Democratic Party were still trying to decide between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.
I've always liked Sarah Palin, and before most people even knew about her.
I still do like her. She's not my first pick to run against Obama in 2012, but she makes the short list.
Z;
Just tonight, 90% of the French TV's and AV Medias are talking about the Islamism and it's impact on politics.
Unbelievable, all those medias and specially the Americans make an huge error between Islamism and the Muslim Individuals.
This big Mistake is what the Islamism want you the people to make.
This is the best way to hidden the ANTI-CHRIST inside the mass.
Z;
If you think that, Now, is the good time to Di-scramble the Islamism, tell me.
If, you the people, you really want to discover the BIG SECRET of the Islamism, we can start.
You can kill all the Muslims in the USA, you will not up-root the Islamism from YOUR COUNTRY.
If you kill all the Patients you will not harm the VIRUS.
SAM
You know all those other countries and cultures that obongo obviously thinks are better than America? If he had been a citizen of any one of them, he would never have become the president or prime minister of any of them. And specifically because of his skin color.
Beamish, I wish I still felt that way about her; I was totally gung-ho, but a few things she's said the last few months have about done her in for me. I never thought that would happen.
SAM, if we say good Muslims marching in America against the Islamism, that would really help. As you know, I( and many Americans ) do separate Muslims from Islamists...but, it's very hard considering most Muslims back that awful organization CAIR over America every time there's a choice.
Z;
You don't know how to combat Islamism;
To be Honest, even Bush helped Islamism and terrorism to become a world threat, because he didn't recognized the Islamism, and he was used by Islamism, and he did what Islamism was dreaming to do.
With this level of Understanding, you never be able to combat the Islamism.
What your Government is doing is the exact AGENDA of the Islamism.
Your FBI, CIA, Pentagon, have become the tools controlled by the Islamism.
All your Anti-Islamist and Anti-Terrorist experts were dismissed.
SAM
Beamish, I wish I still felt that way about her; I was totally gung-ho, but a few things she's said the last few months have about done her in for me. I never thought that would happen.
I'm not familiar with anything really controversial she's said in the past view months. I'm sure I've said worse. And relish the chance to do so in the future.
Attacking Palin is a huge depletion of the left's resources (as will be the flimsy, destined to fail court challenges and recall petitions against Governor Walker and the new labor laws in Wisconsin). She's taking the heat and not missing a beat, a living, walking example of the impotence and futility of Alinskyism.
I'd actually be surprised if she announces a run for the Presidency, and give up her crusade to force the left to waste money and time.
It came up missing the first time I posted this so here it is again!!
beamish:
I'm not naive. I just tend to think a sniper rifle is better than a nuke. "Kill all Muslims" is just crazy talk.
I don't think anyone in the military with that attitude will be placed in positions of command, or even should be.
Major’s rhetoric bothers me too. As a disabled combat veteran, beamish, you are 100% correct in your statement above. I don’t think I’m over stepping my bounds when I say I believe that most combat veterans would agree with you.
Most soldiers, if they’re honest, abhor any type of killing. It’s attitudes like Major’s that gave us Lt Calley and My Lai.
I’ve come to know MANY Iraq and Afghanistan combat veterans through the various organizations that I’m affiliated with. They certainly don’t share the views that Major seems to hold. I’m personally embarrassed by Major’s rhetoric and apologize for what he seems to represent and I can say he does not represent my or most combats veterans attitudes about war and Muslims. Veterans that I’m am honored to be able to call my friends.
Scotty, if you mean your comment disappeared, I AM SO SORRY,
No need to apologize to me, Z. I know all too well about the quirks and hiccups that happen.
Scotty,
I understand what you're saying, and agree with it.
But, point of order on the "My Lai massacre" - my uncle was in Vietnam [3 Bronze Stars, 2 Purple Hearts] and was near My Lai when that happened. According to him, "no innocents died there" and I tend to agree with him, as controversial as that may seem.
My grandfather had to gun down children in Germany, the Hitler Youth, because they were shooting at him and his fellow soldiers.
Neither of these men of honor WANTED to kill people, especially children, but armed is armed, and enemy is enemy.
I tend to believe the adage that veterans that brag about their combat didn't actually see any.
But, point of order on the "My Lai massacre" - my uncle was in Vietnam [3 Bronze Stars, 2 Purple Hearts] and was near My Lai when that happened. According to him, "no innocents died there" and I tend to agree with him, as controversial as that may seem.
If your uncle was a "grunt" that was and isn't his judgement to make.
Normal people don’t kill 300+ people in a single moment in time, enemy or not when they are NOT armed. I see NO justification for that action. And, neither did the military.
If there was any suspicion at all of what they may all have been and they’re loyalties, you gathered them up and shipped them all off to the people that could make that determination.
My grandfather had to gun down children in Germany, the Hitler Youth, because they were shooting at him and his fellow soldiers.
As we were also called on to do but, again, they were armed.
I tend to believe the adage that veterans that brag about their combat didn't actually see any.
I concur those, that talk the most, did the least. It’s always been the case…….
It took many years for those of us that were in the Americal Division to wear that patch with pride, thanks to those that were involved in that awful mess.
I had the blue and 4 white stars 23rd Inf. Div. Americal patches on an old jacket as a kid growing up in the 1970s before I understood there was any controversy or dishonor associated with them. Maybe that's why hippies hated me back then, LOL. I just thought they looked cool on a jacket.
Sadly, my uncle's too eaten up with strokes and Alzheimer's and dioxin-related illnesses from Agent Orange exposure these days, but back in the 1980s when he was more coherent he talked about the snipers and booby traps and mines prevalent in the hamlets and villages near My Lai / Son My. His contention was that they didn't get there without those villagers knowledge or consent. He had fought there before the My Lai massacre took place and was as frustrated with the ROE as anyone operating there would be.
He didn't excuse or condone the massacre, just refused to see its victims as pure choirboys and saints.
I had the blue and 4 white stars 23rd Inf. Div. Americal patches on an old jacket as a kid growing up in the 1970s before I understood there was any controversy or dishonor associated with them.
Old timers still call it the Southern Cross. I was in the 11th LIB.
in the 1980s when he was more coherent he talked about the snipers and booby traps and mines prevalent in the hamlets and villages near My Lai / Son My. His contention was that they didn't get there without those villagers knowledge or consent.
You have to keep in mind that when we(the military) weren’t there, these people had to live with the VC and or the NVA. If your life and your family’s safety depended on you keeping quiet while your neighbor, who could have been VC was out and about setting booby traps where the US military might be, what would you do?
It’s the easy way out to blame those villagers for the problems that Calley and his men might have been suffering before that event. But, those villagers were doing all that they could to survive and all that they had to do to stay alive.
If they had been compliant and gave up those that were doing these things to the G.I.s, after those G.I.s left, it would be very possible that the VC or NVA would be there the next night to slaughter villagers for giving them up. You have to be able to see the tightrope that these folks were having to walk……..put yourself in their shoes.
I get all that, Scotty. I'm not lionizing Calley and his men as "unsung heroes" for what they did - illegally.
I'm just saying America wouldn't have set out to "win hearts and minds" in those VC-supporting / VC-terrorized villages if those hearts and minds were already won.
They were complicit with the VC. They may have been complicit with the VC out of fear amd "walking a tightrope" but they were still, in the end, complicit.
That's an honest assessment anyone can make. Calley just took the wrong-headed step of trying to do something more atrocious than the VC to counter it, to try to make the villages complicit with Americans out of fear instead.
If My Lai / Son My and the surrounding hotbeds of VC activity had been napalmed from the air instead, hardly anybody would have blinked an eye.
But because Calley and his men violated the ROE to make it personal, they lost any moral high ground they otherwise could have had.
I will say Calley took the fall for a lot of people higher up in the chain of command though.
I will say Calley took the fall for a lot of people higher up in the chain of command though.
Calley got off pretty easy in all this, a couple of years of house arrest. But, he could have refused the order, if there was such a standing order. He still made a choice and was responsible for that choice.
But, your right, there should have been other higher ups go down too. Especially Medina.
Are far as winning hearts and minds? That's a whole other issue...it's Z's blog and I don't want to bore people with history that very few are interested in anymore. So I'll stop here....
Ah, there's no such thing as a boring history discussion :)
Post a Comment