Tuesday, October 5, 2010

Islam; a discussion. Who's telling the truth? It's there somewhere...

*Amanpour gets an earful on Islam


*Z: This is written by someone for the Charleston Daily Mail;  his asides aren't important but the text is.  Please pay particular attention to the words I highlighted in red.  Remember that Daisy Khan is the wife of the imam who wants to build the mosque near 9/11 in NYC. Here goes:  
Christiane Amanpour had a kumbaya today on Muslims and America today. Daisy Khan of Victory Mosque fame and others were there.  Why can’t we just get along.
From the transcript (the show airs at 11:30 AM):
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, Reverend Graham, you have said — and you said not so long ago — that President Bush and President Obama made a great mistake when they said that Islam is a peaceful religion. It’s not, you said. There’s no evidence in its history. It’s a religion of hatred. It’s a religion of war. And repeatedly you’ve said that Islam is wicked and evil. Why do you say that?
REV. FRANKLIN GRAHAM, PRESIDENT, SAMARITAN’S PURSE/THE BILLY GRAHAM EVANGELISTIC ASSOCIATION: First, Christiane, I understand what the Muslims want to do in America. They want to build as many mosques and cultural centers as they possibly can so they can convert as many Americans as they can to Islam. I understand that. And–
AMANPOUR: That’s what you — that’s your position?
GRAHAM: Sure. And I understand — I understand what they’re doing. And I just don’t have the — the freedom to do this in most Muslim countries. We can’t have a church. We’re not able to build synagogues. It’s — it’s forbidden. But let me just say something about Islam. I — I love the Muslim people. But I have great difficulty with the — with the religion, especially with Sharia law and what it does for women — toward women, toward non-believers, the violence that is given in — under Sharia law.
And he did not relent. After the rest of the gaggle of guests (too many for a discussion even if they used the full hour):
GRAHAM: You know we can have an argument — but I’m not here to argue. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father in heaven except through him. I don’t believe in Islam. I don’t believe a word of it. I do respect their right to — to believe whatever they want to believe. My opinions are not based on hearsay. My opinions are based on 50 years of working in Middle Eastern countries. I’m 58. I was — eight years old when I made my first trip to Egypt. And I’ve been to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia. I’ve worked in these countries. But I disagree, Christiane, with — with the Sharia law, because they do stone women. They do imprison — I — I’ve worked in the Sudan, where they’ve burned over a thousand churches — a thousand.
And there was this exchange:
GRAHAM: I think to — to take your daughter, because you think that — and the religion gives you the authority — Sharia gives you the authority for honor killing. And we saw the young girl in Ohio just a few–
IMAM: It does not.
AMANPOUR: But does it?
IMAM: It does not.
GRAHAM: It does.
IMAM: It does not.
GRAHAM: It does.
IMAM: No it does not.
Peace. Love. Harmony.
ANJEM CHOUDARY: Well — well, let me just say that Islam has a solution for all of the problems that mankind faces. If you want to live at peace with Muslims, we are quite willing to live at peace with you. But let us remember that history did not begin on 9/11. Before 9/11, the Americans — the American government bombed Sudan and Afghanistan. They were supporting the pirate state of Israel. So 9/11 was a reaction. You know, I think that we need to get away from the stereotyping. And this idea that you have moderate Muslims and you have radical Muslims, you know, it’s complete nonsense. A Muslim is the one who submits to the command of the creator. If he submits, he is a practicing Muslim. If he is not, then he should be practicing.
DAISY KHAN: I have to disagree with him, because Islam is a religion of pluralism that embraces all religions and it also embraces different interpretations. This is why we have so many schools of thought. What Anjem is talking about is an exclusivist view of Islam, which is my way or the highway. And my interpretation is the only interpretation–
CHOUDARY: It’s very easy for people to justify the fact that they’re not practicing. I mean, this lady in your studio, she should be covering with the hijab. She’s obviously not practicing –
(CROSSTALK)
CHOUDARY: There are many people who are justifying — there are many people who are justifying the inability to practice the Sharia, to say, “Well, I have a different form of religion.” You know, people want to claim that they’re vegetarians and they’re eating big beef burgers. You can not be a non-practicing vegetarian. Therefore, similarly, if you’re a Muslim, you submit to the Sharia.
FRANKLIN GRAHAM: He’s telling the truth.
AMANPOUR: You see, Reverend Graham says you’re telling the truth. So, do you agree with Reverend Graham and our panelists on this side that Americans should fear Islam?
CHOUDARY: we do believe, as Muslims, the East and the West will one day be governed by the Sharia. Indeed, we believe that one day, the flag of Islam will fly over the White House. Indeed, there’s even an oration of the Prophet where he said, “The day of judgment will not come until a group of my oma… [interrupted] Conquer the White House.”
Fascinating.
PETER GADIEL, WHOSE SON DIED IN 9/11: I do not say that Islam is evil. I say there is a lot of evil connected with it. That is a problem for Muslims themselves. They have to cure the problem. We’re supposed to believe Ms. Khan here, that she can cure the problems of Islam at the fringes. The problem goes to the core, and that is the countries — you cannot ignore Saudi Arabia and Iran, and the other countries that, undoubtedly do oppress people of a different religion –
AMANPOUR: But we’re talking about — we’re talking about America here.
Dismissive. Odd that a woman who acts as if her mission is to educate dumb Americans on the ways of the world is suddenly stick-to-America.
GARY BAUER: Ten years ago — 20 years ago, an artist here in New York took a crucifix and submerged it in a vat of urine and called it “Piss Christ.” Christians did not riot. There were not terror cells formed of Christians wanting to blow up artists in New York. If the foolish pastor — foolish pastor in Florida had burned the Koran, that would not have been the cause of the violence. That would have been the excuse for the violence. Whether it’s cartoons, an infidel touching A Koran, the fact of the matter is, that the radical mosques keep many Muslims on the edge of mayhem and violence.
AMANPOUR: My question about the Islamic center that Daisy and her husband wanted to build is the opposition to it. Are you basically saying its al Qaeda and al Qaeda like sympathizers who are building this mosque?
BAUER: No, I’m saying that it is incredibly insensitive for her or anyone else to suggest building a mosque near a place where 3,000 people died, killed by men operating in the name of Islam.
AMANPOUR: But why — why should it be insensitive? And then I will ask Donna. Why should it be insensitive if you’re not blurring the lines between those who killed and the rest of the religion? why are you deliberately blurring the lines?
BAUER: Because that is ground that was the first chapter in a war with radical Islam. At this very moment, Christiane, the reality that we all face is that there are evil men that worship death that want to bring us a day much worse than the morning of 9/11.
AMANPOUR: But where should this center be built?
BAUER: Well, it can be built anywhere in New York. There’s — there’s mosques being built every month in New York. There are many more mosques in New York today than there were in the morning of 9/11.
It is an extraordinary exchange. If her point was to isolate Graham and Choudary as radicals at the edges and put the rest of us in the middle, perhaps it worked.
But simply dismissing fears as being unfounded does not allay those fears. Respect is mutual. Defending the Victory Mosque is hardly a gesture of peace.
I thank Amanpour for at least trying something new and giving critics of Islam a forum.  End of story.

Z:   Now, some might say that Graham is ridiculous, Ms Khan (head of the American Society for Muslim ADVANCEMENT...catchy name, huh?) is sensible and there's no reason to worry about muslims, but I also got THIS sent to me today, where the Time Square bomber says "Brace yourself..the war with muslims has just begun."   OH, ya...I'm sure he's just one pipsqueak and there's no story here, he's probably just a nut acting on his own, right? :-)....that is if you can't think and don't give a damn about protecting us and America.  Time to wake up and see the muslim pieces are beginning to fit into the puzzle apparently planned long ago.
6:00PM LA time addition:  Mustang's blog has THIS today..showing Choudary (one of the men above) saying HIS TRUTH...let's get Ducky to disclaim this, okay?  Tell us, Ducky...which part of this isn't true?

Thanks, Mustang.................
geeeeeeeeeeeeeZ

58 comments:

Ducky's here said...

Truth. When I was at RISD I dated Christiane Amanpour.

Joe Conservative said...

Wink, wink, nudge nudge...

Does she go?

Anonymous said...

Truth....? You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

We are and have been since 1971...at war with islam and it's followers. We've conveniently forgotten Munich and hijacked air liners and dead ship passengers. The hijacking of Israeli PASSENGER jets and the continuing murder of it's citizens as well as soldiers...by depraved, murderous, murdering, barbaric, savage 7th Century scum....still know as the muslim plague.

I swear to you all.....there will be a war within the borders of this country. One look at the rage the "sophisticated, tolerant, hip ) New Yorkers reactions to this insult....this smarmy, snide arrogant bastard and his "wife"....should tell you that the heartland and the majority of Americans...DO NOT WANT MOSQUES BUILT IN THIS COUNTRY!

The lines have been crossed....the threats have been made ( just today by the bastard that tried to kill in Times Square ) that they want to kill us and will not stop.

Now....given that....what and whom do you think fair targets are in our looming continuous war against these scum?

Ahhhh....screw it. Go back to sleep.

Craig and Heather said...

Z,

I respect Franklin Graham and his work. He knows exactly why Islam is a threat. It's not a people-friendly religion and, ultimately, it destroys souls. I hope it's okay to offer a partial quote from an interview with him in a book entitled Humanitarian Jesus

Our country is changing. There should be an urgency to preach the gospel. In some countries like Australia, some preachers went to prison a few years ago because they spoke out against Islam. Here in America, the day is coming when Christians may be imprisoned for speaking out against homosexuality, for instance. We are commanded by the Lord to speak the truth in love. But the world doesn't want to hear the truth. They believe they have the truth--their truth is what they make it. Our truth is foundational--in the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the "way, the truth and the life." Why shouldn't Christians who carry the greatest and most freeing message ever want to spread it as far and wide as possible? ....rapidly we are losing the freedoms we've taken for granted. The media has had some victories in painting Christians as intolerant--not the left radicals. The day is coming when the enemies of the cross will do whatever it takes to silence the gospel.

The religion of Islam (and Sharia) is anti-Christ. This is what makes it evil in spite of it's apparent "pluralism".

Z, I know you like to try to keep discussion here secular, and I don't want to appear to be preaching at anyone. But if Americans don't figure out this war with Islam is spiritually fueled, we're going to lose...and lose badly.

H

Ducky's here said...

First, Christiane, I understand what the Muslims want to do in America.

-----------------

Franklin Graham, one of the most delusional pompous men you'll find.

He KNOWS what "THE MUSLIMS" (all of them are up to.

The man is a fool and a false prophet. He and Joel Osteen should open a mega church franchise. A complete fraud.

Anonymous said...

Franklin Graham, one of the most delusional pompous men you'll find.

____________________________________

Okay, Ducky, give us the straight goods. You dated Franklin Graham too? Did you double up with Amanpour?

Waylon

Jen said...

The man is a fool and a false prophet. He and Joel Osteen should open a mega church franchise. A complete fraud.
---------

Ducky, that's ridiculous. Surely you can tell the difference between Franklin Graham and Joel Osteen. Puhleeze.

Craig and Heather said...

Sorry Ducky,

Like him or not, Franklin Graham serves the downtrodden masses of humanity that secular socialism loves to talk about saving. And he does it in the name of Christ, who is the only Truth.

One Truth. Two sides. You're either with Jesus or your not.

Unfortunately, the "not" side of the equation is a mass of confusion which includes Islam, communism and pretty much any other world-view which leads people away from reconciliation with Christ.

Islam is a soul-killer. It is hateful to keep quiet and let people ignorantly think otherwise.

H

Ducky's here said...

I notice Franklin mentions the Ohio case of Rifqa Bary who claimed she would be killed for leaving Islam.

It was totally discredited and Pam Geller and Ayaan Hirsi Ali pulled a real Tawana Brawley but the right would never admit to having a few Al Sharpton's in their mist.

Ducky's here said...

Ducky, that's ridiculous. Surely you can tell the difference between Franklin Graham and Joel Osteen. Puhleeze.

---------------

Puhleeze, Osteen scams the suckers and Graham pulls in huge salaries from his "charity". Same deal.

Yeah, Franklin figures the acts of mercy are fine so long as you get paid and make sure the hungry sit through a sermon before being given food.

Craig and Heather said...

but the right would never admit to having a few Al Sharpton's in their mist.

Yeah. You know me. Always defending "the right" so I don't have to look bad. :P

You're missing the point. No mere human being is perfect. Franklin Graham isn't the Messiah and I doubt anyone here would blindly subscribe to everything the man says.

He is someone who isn't afraid to say that Islam is a false religion and there are those who will scream he's intolerant and try to pick him apart for doing so.


I don't have to be a mindless, drooling, Franklin Graham groupie to agree with him on the nature of Islam.

It does not matter that some Muslims are the deceived instead of being the deceivers. Islam isn't Christ-centric. Any form of the religion is deadly. Period.

H

Craig and Heather said...

Yeah, Franklin figures the acts of mercy are fine so long as you get paid and make sure the hungry sit through a sermon before being given food.

For a Christian to say "Jesus loves you" without offering to meet physical needs (if possible) is a sin.

If a Christian fills a man's belly without offering him a chance for true spiritual fulfillment it is a pointless, humanistic exercise in self-exaltation. Another sin.

Jesus gave us His life. The least we can do is share our stuff as we share the truth about who He is.

H

Z said...

Oh, DUcky, this is almost too rich.
Are you suggesting muslims do NOT get killed for leaving islam, for converting to Christianity, for example?
You're joking, right?
Franklin Graham is a very fine man ...we know you hate Protestants, Ducky, WE GET IT.

Heather describes well why we admire his stance on islam; he's RIGHT. He's lived there, he knows. THanks, Heather.

Ducky, what do you think about the fact that no one can build a CHristian church in a Muslim country, and how that sits just fine with you, okay? Yet, brother, let's not demand THEY not build here, GOD FORBID! (Oh, I remember, 'we're better than them'...what an utterly ridiculous, vacuous, naive point of view in these times of terror threat)

Z said...

Ducky, check out the new video at the bottom of my post which I just put on .......


Mustang's blog has that video that shows Choudary talking about SHaria Law and the Islam flag flying over the WHite HOuse.......
thanks, Mustang, excellent addition to this post informationxx

The Vegas Art Guy said...

I like the bait and switch Ducky, instead of commenting on what Graham said, you attack him personally. Kind of like the election this year I suppose, you can't win on the issues so instead you create a moving target hoping we'll fall for the trap. Either Graham is correct about Islam or he's not.

Which is it?

Mustang said...

Ducky never addresses the point of the post because he is incapable of intellectual discourse.

If Graham is delusional, what are you Ducky? Rational?

Catherine Barry said...

Art Guy, Ducky is making a poor attempt to use Alinsky. He attacks Graham personally, makes outrageous accusations... but please note: Doesn't cite one piece of evidence to back up his claims. He knows what Graham teaches, he knows his method, but I guarantee you he has never been to any service or witnessed anything he claims to know. One time I'd like to see something that is "factual" cited to support his leftista BS.

But I'm not holding my breath!!!

beamish said...

My little sister is a Muslim. She converted after 9/11, during the Iraq War. She married an Arab from Egypt and now lives in Cairo.

It's hard to make sweeping generalizations about Muslims when they're in your family now.

Do I bash and ridicule that meteor-worshipping, mendacious, duplicitous violent religion? You betcha.

But I've come, begrudgingly, to realize that Muslims and practioners of Islam may not exactly be the same thing.

I can't condemn all Muslims.

I can condemn Muslims who can't condemn terrorism.

Therein lies the problem.

Anonymous said...

Islam is so full of contradictions that it can best be described as at theological war with itself. Which allows Muslims to believe whatever they want about the faith.

But to read the Koran and Hadiths is to see one predominant theme, even if it's at times contradicted in other passages: Peace for Muslims, war for everyone else. And so it has been since the birth of the faith.

Canadian Steve

Z said...

Beamish, I keep not condemning all muslims and then I read things like the article I posted ...and watch Choudary talk and man, it turns me so off. That, and the fact that lying for Allah is absolutely condoned.
Do I hate your sister or her husband? Only if she or her husband want you and me dead and I doubt that.
Do I think a LOT of Islamic leaders ARE planning SHaria law for this country and have been for years? Ya. I hate that BIG TIME.

Z said...

welcome, STeve...you're absolutely right. We will never have peace again in the WEstern world, that is FOR SURE, there can be no doubt about that. NEVER.
The European terror warnings are the tip of the iceberg.

Catherine and Mustang, I wonder that Ducky doesn't see for himself how he picks the slightest, most inconsequential point of most of my posts, ignores the main important points and insults or belittles that tiny point...or shoots the messenger, you're right about that. I always give him the credit to think he'd be intellectually honest, but.......it's clear he's not.

The Vegas Art Guy said...

Mustang,
Ducky and I have had our skirmishes before, so I am familiar with how he thinks, more or less. You don't always see me here because teaching comes first, although I really should be grading essays right now.

Z said...

Vegas Guy, I commented at your place on the ODYSSEY post and I just saw it's not there.......
I wish you'd seen it; I had a teacher named Miss Beatty who was decidedly unattractive but who became BEAUTIFUL as she drew the whole ODYSSEY story across two long black boards in high school! WHat a teacher she was! We couldn't wait to see what she'd draw next and would learn so much that way!

The Vegas Art Guy said...

I remember that comment Z. One of the things that I enjoy is when students suddenly understand a concept that has given them fits.

The audio files that came with the textbook are a God send, especially with The Odyssey and Romeo and Juliet.

Ducky's here said...

Yeah, Choudray is a piece of work. Completely over the high side but plenty good to get the right wingers wetting their pants.

Is he any worse than ome of your military posters who think that America will conquer the earth and bring state capitalism to everyone even if we have to, in your own words, kill civilians.

Physician, heal thyself.

It's gettin' edgy, time to find a war
There must be somethin' worth fightin' for
Peace is so peaceful, it ain't a way to survive
When nobody hates you, nobody knows you're alive

We got the guns, we got the oilmen too
They're like a choir, they wanna sing for you
Wham! Bam! Slip slidin' away
The less you got, the more you gonna pay

You want it, you'll get it
We got what you need
You ain't got to sweat it
We gonna make you bleed

We got some freedom, we got the iPod store
We got the savior, you couldn't ask for more
Take it or leave it, it's the deal of the day
And if you leave it, you get it anyway

You want it, you'll get it
We got what you need
You ain't got to sweat it
We gonna make you bleed

Get your coat on, you ain't supposed to laugh
This ain't a joke it's an epitaph
It's the rise and the fall, that's the name of the game
It's the land of the free, the blind leadin' the lame
It's the land of the free, the blind leadin' the lame

beamish said...

I was steadfastly against Islam before 9/11. Losing my childhood best friend's older brother in the Beirut barracks bombing back in the 80's set me on that path. By the time the Cole was bombed after it had relieved my brother's ship in Yemen, it just keppt getting closer.

Then 9/11.

Then my sister converted.

What kind of chapter and verse anti-Islam critic can I be if I can't even persuade my own little sister?

It takes the wind out of ya, leeme tell ya.

Z said...

Ducky, Protest music, how cute:-) Really rather charming.
I was wondering if you really think your way is the only way and we're all just dopes for not seeing things your way? Do you hear yourself?
Tell me why you think Arab countries don't let Christians build churches there?
thanks.

Beamish....not much to say to that. Except that's a huge onus you're putting on yourself.
I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

beamish said...

Ducky should go sing that in downtown Karachi.

Anonymous said...

Look what religion does to people. It divides them.

Karen Howes said...

Wow. Religion is a religion of "pluralism", but you will all be living under our boot heels.

Somebody a-not tewing da twuth.

Always On Watch said...

Bummer! I'm in the midst of my grueling work week and don't have time to participate cogently in this discussion.

Suffice it to say that, officially, there is only one Islam that the ummah are ever seeking the elusive will of Allah. For that reason, the moderate Moslems, those not waging any form of jihad, will not turn on the fundamentalist Moslems.

Always On Watch said...

Choudary is "over there," and we've got this here in America.

Comforting, huh? [heavy sarcasm]

Craig and Heather said...

What kind of chapter and verse anti-Islam critic can I be if I can't even persuade my own little sister?

It's not your fault, Beamish. Faithful proclamation of truth and conversion of souls are two different things.

I'm truly sorry about your friend's brother :(




Tell you what, Ducky. Two Biblical criteria for recognizing a false prophet are:

1. One who professes to have heard a word from God--yet proves to have not

2. One whose teaching leads people away from true knowledge of who Christ is (all true OT prophets pointed toward Jesus in some way).

The effect on followers of a false prophet is that they land in a state of idolatry, whether that idol is a rock, statue, individual person or self-sufficiency.

If you're looking to string up a false teacher, start with Mohammed. And work your way down through those who faithfully promote Islam (any branch)as a God-pleasing religion. Then we can talk about Franklin Graham's faults. Or mine. Or any other flawed Christian you like.


It never pleases God when His beloved Son is effectively and collectively being spit upon by those who ought to be gratefully falling at His feet in worship.

H

JINGOIST said...

Islam is a COMPLETE, fascistic way of life. Unlike Christianity or Judaism, it doesn't recognize secular authority.
The Imam was lying, what a shock! :-)

Debbie said...

I wondered where Graham was when the Ground Zero mosque / Koran burning situation was at it's height. He was silent as far as I know.

I agree with Graham and in this interview his views and the Muslims views seem to actually be the same. For once they seem to speak the truth, Islam wants to take over.

Debbie
Right Truth
http://www.righttruth.typepad.com

FrogBurger said...

Jingoist, christianity was that way too. When the Church was running the State or using the King of France, it wasn't pretty. Ask the protestants.

I'm personally fed up with religions. I'd rather have faith and principles without this collective thing.

Craig and Heather said...

I'm personally fed up with religions. I'd rather have faith and principles without this collective thing.

"Religion" is never the answer.

There's a difference between
Christianity the visible religious institution and Christianity the personal, individual relationship.

I'll restrict my preaching to Ducky, though. :)

FrogBurger said...

You're right Heather

Speedy G said...

Don't humour mr. ducky... he's an evangelical socialist. ;)

beamish said...

Z,

Huge onus on myself? Perhaps. But me and my sister were close at one time.

It's hard to fall back on what I know and believe when the course is watching a loved one turn her back on everything to go be a part of everything in this world I despise, then the
final spiritual outcome is me in "heaven" eternally seperated from my sister - one of the few people I'd hold hands with in hell. Have held hands with in hell...

It's had a deleterious, painful effect on my mind and soul, theologically. Maybe I take too much upon myself in that, but... no one else will.

The comforting things about my faith aren't so comfortable anymore. I guess that's the point.

Sorry to stain the rug with tears here.

Dave Miller said...

Debbie brings us back to a central point of the show.

As I watched it unfold I was amazed at how much it seemed to be following a script.

We started with Graham, and his views could have been guessed ahead of time.

Interspersed throughout were the comments of people like Gary Bauer, Daisy Khan, parents of 9/11 survivors on both sides of the issue and of course, Christiane.

And then came Mr. Choudary. He stated that for him, as an Imam, Islam would one day conquer the world and the flag of Islam would one day fly over the White House.

While the more moderate Muslims tried to disagree with him, he asked if you could be a vegetarian and still eat meat... or put another way, be a Muslim, and just not adhere to all of the tenants.

Clearly he was on the side of you need to adhere to and follow all of the precepts of Islam, including the ones we as Americans, typically do not like.

At that point Graham just stepped back and said see, is that not what I said?

It was a priceless moment.

But thinking about that, I am struck by another thought.

If that is the view of Islam, and not having studied it enough to know for sure, the view that Islam will one day conquer all and that the world will worship Allah, how different is that from the Christian view?

Don't Christians also believe that one God will one day conquer all in a cataclysmic duel to the end with death and evil?

As followers of Islam seem to be willing to fight to the death for their religion, don't Christians express that seems missionary zeal as they [we?] travel around the world bringing what is believed to be the one true end times message to the people?

For a religion admittedly stuck in non technological times, is there really that much difference between Islam forcing people to choose death or Allah as they exit their Dark Ages, and the carnage wrought around the world by Christians in years past?

I am not sure...

Craig and Heather said...

Don't Christians also believe that one God will one day conquer all in a cataclysmic duel to the end with death and evil?

There are several differing Christian views concerning the way "end times" chronology will play out.

But Christ already won the battle over sin and death at the cross. Satan's been defeated, but not entirely put out of the picture, yet. Christians look back to Christ's victory and ahead to His triumphant return as we are tested and refined during our earthly sojourn.

H

Craig and Heather said...

As followers of Islam seem to be willing to fight to the death for their religion, don't Christians express that seems missionary zeal as they [we?] travel around the world bringing what is believed to be the one true end times message to the people?

Islam's a satanic smoke screen, designed to interfere with people seeing the truth about Christ.

Anonymous said...

The truth about Islam is best told by those who advocate jihad against the infidels in the West, IMO. One such individual is Faisal Shahzad, the Times Square jihadist. His words here should confirm what was said in the video, Z.

"The defeat of (the) U.S. is imminent and will happen in near future," he told the Manhattan federal courtroom. "We are only Muslims ... but if you call us terrorists, we are proud terrorists and we will keep on terrorizing you."

"We Muslims don't abide by human-made laws because they are always corrupt," he said, denouncing the presence of U.S. and NATO forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and mentioning al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden.

"Furthermore, brace yourselves because the war with Muslims has just begun," he said. "Consider me the first droplet of the flood that will follow."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/times-square-bomber-sentenced-to-life-in-prison-1.317355

Interesting the delusional pretensions about hearing a call inside his skull to disobey laws because his inner voices are better.

Waylon

Z said...

Heather, thanks for your responses to Dave... you bring it to where it must be; the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Of course, Christians, in the name of the Lord, have done nothing horrid in hundreds of years and , even then, didn't represent the True Word, but let one CHristian kill an abortion doctor and the media acts as if Christians are like Muslims, sanctioning murder in the name of God.

Waylon, I had heard that threat...I believe there is the trouble he suggests is coming; no doubt about it. Otherwise, we wouldn't have mosques being built everywhere in Western society, even in towns whose demographics far from support it. Even small villages in Germany are having mosques built and the people can't figure out why. THat, of course, is for when the EU finally, wrongly, accepts TUrkey, then it'll be GOODBYE EUROPE. (No passports needed between EU countries!)

My heart aches for America and it aches for people who'd put faith aside because "religion divides"...and it aches when Christians are hinted to be as violent or dark-hearted as the core of Islam's koran is.

Dave Miller said...

The point where we find ourselves is indeed interesting.

I believe God's call on my life and ministry to be true.

I also cannot dispute that an Imam must also feel the same way about his call.

The question is how to reconcile two completely different world views, when both sides must coexist in the same place.

Waylon, how different is the response of Islam today towards us, as they emerge into the technological society, and the Christian response in the past at similar points in history?

Is it recent? By no means. But we cannot deny that history.

Mind you, I am in way excusing the types of aberrant behavior we are seeing, terrorism is wrong, period. Always, in any circumstance.

But for us to act as if Christians have not also done some horrible stuff in the name of God, is not accurate.

Z... that we have had people act horribly in the name of Christianity is not in doubt. And I agree that when those people did some heinous stuff, they wrongly did so in the name of God.

But that is what the moderates on the ABC show were saying about Islam.

That the perpetrators of the most egregious acts, didn't represent the "True Word" of Islam.

Isn't it possible that there are in fact millions of peace loving Muslims {Beamish' relative?] around the world that like Christians just want to be left alone to live their lives and are not fundamentalists?

I guess I want to believe this to be true.

Craig and Heather, no doubt there are a variety of views on the end times but overwhelmingly the classic "Left Behind" view is predominant within the more conservative circle of belief.

Craig and Heather said...

Dave Miller:

The question is how to reconcile two completely different world views, when both sides must coexist in the same place.

The problem is that Islam cannot be reconciled with Christianity. Mohammed tossed Jesus into the trunk of his theology and elevated himself to a place of prominence as Allah's primary spokesman.

This is spiritual warfare manifesting itself on a physical level. People in our modernized, secularized society tend to dismiss such realities as "uncivilized", but that is exactly what makes us so vulnerable to being deceived by the concept of moderate Islam.

It doesn't matter which branch of Islam you walk out on, practitioners are still separated from the truth about Jesus Christ. It's a death sentence, pure and simple. And those who follow the more extreme variations simply act according to the level of spiritual decay they've experienced.

In America, we don't like to appear to be judgmental of the chosen beliefs and lifestyles of others, and it's true that it is wrong to try to force others into a particular religious mold.

But our overall lack of discernment concerning spiritual matters is a dangerous business and it's going to come back to bite us hard.



Craig and Heather, no doubt there are a variety of views on the end times but overwhelmingly the classic "Left Behind" view is predominant within the more conservative circle of belief.

It's possibly the loudest in the US at the moment. But there are plenty of postmill and amill as well as historic premill around and it's good to remember that "Left Behind" is a fictional representation of only one eschatological interpretation.

My point was that the concept of God showing up at the end of the world and "winning" the battle is an errant perspective. Jesus will return, but He's already won.

Dave Miller said...

"The battle is won." That is certainly what we believe to be true.

But of course followers of Islam believe their truths to be just as valid, accurate, and true.

Now no amount of arguing is going to change that basic equation.

My question is how do we coexist, [outside of theology] or maybe even, can we on this planet, or does one side have to "win?"

Joe Conservative said...

The difference is that Christ didn't tell his followers to grab a sword and conquer the infidels. Mohammed DID.

Christians were instructed to convert with the Word... Moslem's with a Sword.

BIG difference.

Joe Conservative said...

ps - We DON"t coexist by inviting them in WITH THEIR SWORDS.

They either leave the swords (and the beliefs that encourage its' use) at the border, or they can't come in. PERIOD.

If they could trust them to live peacefully within another society, the Jews wouldn't be struggling with them now. That they can't assimilate is already. Q.E.D.

Major said...

"or does one side have to "win?"

Of course one side has to win. We're in a battle for our very existence as a Judeo Christian nation. A battle for our Republic and democratic principles over islam which means...submission.

We're in a battle against the imposition of sharia law. We're in a battle to maintain women's rights and the rights of all free people against a totalitarian, fascist, murderous political ideology that rules over 50 countries on the planet.

We're in a battle to defy, resist and and overwhelm these dark forces that want, desire and to promote their ideology over this country and all Western civilizations.

The lines have been drawn with a statement ( and not the first time ) that their goal is an Islamist States of America. And their hope to raise a crescent flag flying over the WH should be a clarion call to resist, expel, deport and rid ourselves of these vermin.

Prosecute them either under RICO laws...or sedition and treasonous acts and statements like this ( which are the very nature call for the overthrow of the United States by force ).

What the hell is wrong with us?

I'll tell you what...any red blooded American who loves his country and freedom would rather see blood in the streets than to choose to "exist" under islamic domination...or any theological domination...period.

And many millions of us will be damn sure to fight hard... if these bastards continue to force their will upon us.



Major

Z said...

Dave, if they'd ever read the koran, they'd know the true word of their faith demands death to the infidel.
If one muslim can find a correlating sentiment in the Bible, I'd like to see it, wouldn't you?

Yes, one side does have to 'win', though Christians in this country never viewed it that way until some of us woke up after 9/11 and realized we're being pushed into winning or death, something leftwingers will never understand for some reason. WHo gave a darn about muslims living here peacefully until 9/11 happened and, suddenly, muslims can't study at universities here in AMerica without washing their feet in basins the U has to pay for...or muslim butchers couldn't suddenly cut pork, or muslim cabbies couldn't allow a fare with a dog or alcohol with him........
Suddenly, after 9/11, islam became threatening and demanding. WHY?
Why can't we build churches in Arabia?
Very different faiths, aren't they.

I'm hearing about imams being baptized in Turkey now and finally speaking about the light in the Christian faith compared to islamic darkness; we need to pray for them before they're killed.

I don't know how we're going to coexist; there was never concern about this until muslims started terrorism, you know that. I'm SO tired of lefties saying it's WE who started this and 9/11 was only a reaction of angry muslims..angry about their killing the marines in Beirut? Angry about their killing people in the African embassies or the ship in Yemen? I give up.

Yet WE are the ones held responsible by the world and our leftwingers.....figure THAT out!!

God bless America...

Anonymous said...

"My question is how do we coexist, [outside of theology] or maybe even, can we on this planet, or does one side have to "win?""

Dave, the Islamists have called for a worldwide jihad against the infidels. That's us.

Unless they are willing to retreat, one side has to win.

We did not ask for this, and intellectualizing about why, or what does this mean, will not win the day.

We can't talk it away, or wish it away. Reality has a way of being....well, very real.

The sooner we accept that, the sooner we'll begin to win the battles. Winning the war will take a lot longer.

Pris

Major said...

"I don't know how we're going to coexist"...


It should be completely obvious now to any American citizen with an IQ above room temperature...THAT WE CANNOT EXIST WITH A HATEFUL FASCIST, MURDEROUS, BLASPHEMOUS IDEOLOGY as is...ISLAM!!!

Jesus Christ....it is in and of itself the total antithesis of freedom, democracy and a vile aberration to all free people.

I'm ready...I'm ready to fight...I'm ready to do what our founders pledged to do to overwhelm an oppressive, vile foreign entity.

Are you? Or is it only for the 40 states that recognize the 2nd amendment?

Sorry...but Islam has been fucking with us for far too long. I'm fed up...I know millions of Americans are fed up....I know I'm not going to be their "friends" or their "buds".

Sinced 911 when they should have laid low...they've been poking, prodding, stabbing and prodding our sense of fairness and "tolerance".

While they are NOT.

MUCK FUSLIMS....the totalitarian enemies of America...no different than the enemies we faced in WW2....there will be a day when the 2.3 million of them will rue the day...they didn't get the message from their imams...to shut up...chill out.

And STFU....

I haven't put 200 rounds through my AR's in years...until recently.

Fed up....ammo up.

Ya....I know....I'm "crazy" right? Meanwhile the muslim mutts, the terrorists keep on keeping on. But we're supposed to reach out and exhibit....understanding?

I understand this....there's a showdown coming. And Obama and his muslim buds...better get out of the way.


You need us on that line....reallly. Cause that's what's coming down the pike.

Major

Craig and Heather said...

Thank you so much, Z, for allowing me to indulge my penchant for theological discussion!



H

Z said...

Pris and Major; I think there is NO SOLUTION with muslims......we will be fighting till the end of time. It's a very sad state of affairs and it'll always be OUR FAULT according to the lefties.

Heather, I like theological discussion; I think we all know when it's gone too far.
I won't have people fighting each other as if Christians can't get along; it's a TERRIBLE witness, don't you think? ONe of the times we had problems, a certain blogger even said "can't you all just get along"
I didn't build a blog to have people decide CHristians can't agree on anything...I LOVE discussion/disagreement, etc., and it has to stay civil and not so deep that some can't follow .
Thanks for the conversation on this subject ... I think you'll know when it's going too far.
xxx

beamish said...

The difference is that Christ didn't tell his followers to grab a sword and conquer the infidels. Mohammed DID.

Jesus didn't come to bring peace, but rather a sword.

Sell your cloak and buy one.

A strong man well armed keeps his palace and goods in peace.

:)

Major said...

THE TENETS OF ISLAM.....
ARE YOU READY TO ACCEPT THIS?




Muslims will never, ever assume “Western values” or any other Western values or life style. This is because to a Muslim:

Dating is evil
Love between a man and a woman is evil
Homosexuals are evil
Sex is evil
TV is evil
Music is evil
Movies are evil
Magazines are evil
Cartoons are evil
Pictures of Mohammad are really, really evil
Education for women is evil
Science is evil
Pork chops, bacon, and sausages are evil
Skirts are evil
Blouses are evil
Woman’s hair, wrists, & ankles are evil
Women drivers are evil
Christains are evil
Jews are evil
The Bible is Evil
Buddha is evil
Free speech is evil
Freedom of the press is evil
Freedom of Religion is evil
Using logic and facts is evil
Thinking for one’s self is evil
Personal (independence) freedom is evil
Not killing your enemies is evil
But, at least killing non-believers is good, including innocent women and children of non-believers who are on buses or planes or restaurants (i.e., anyone who is not a Muslim)
Honor killings are good
Stoning people to death is good
Chopping off hands is good
Beheading people and posting it on U-Tube is honorable and divine
Need I go on?


Major