Tuesday, May 26, 2009

Frogburger; Third in the Continuing Series....

Thanks for your great support of this series! Here is the THIRD ANSWER in our continuing series with Frogburger. For those of you who didn't see the first two answers or what prompted this interview series, please click HERE , make sure you read the excellent comments there and then come back and read this one....I know you'll appreciate this French new- American's insights:


3. When did you first start to get a feeling something was changing for the worse in America?

I don’t have a specific event or date in mind. Obviously 9/11 was a terrible moment to live through, especially because I was in DC and worked close to the Pentagon. However, I did not realize at the time that this event would trigger so many real changes.

It is mostly by talking to friends -- who are mostly Democrats or Liberals since I have lived on the coasts – that I felt socialist ideas may take place in this country. The healthcare issue has made people confused. They confused healthcare with welfare and think they go hand in hand. That is why a lot of people think the European model is wonderful without making the intellectual effort of looking at what it really entails.

But beyond socialism I fear a greater danger is looming: fascism coming from the left, which some people on the right could very well join at some point because they are either opportunistic (big businesses like GE) or do not believe strongly in individual liberties.

History has shown fascistic ideas, wrongly associated to the right, are rooted in Marxists and populist ideologies and are far from advocating free market, globalization and personal freedom. Hitler was a national-socialist. Mussolini started his political journey as a Marxist and even the French revolution, revered by the French left, established years of bloody dictatorship.

The French revolution cannot be compared to the American Revolution, for it was fascistic in nature and replaced a monarchy with State terror. I personally despise what the French revolution did past 1789. It was one thing to freed people from aristocracy, it was another to commit genocide against its own citizens (Vendee) and cut the heads of many moderate opponents (Robespierre’s Jacobins vs. Danton’s Girondins) in the name of enlightment.

Mitterrand is another example of how the fascistic and leftist ideas are intertwined. Mitterrand was the most celebrated man in France when he got elected as president in 1981. After years of a bad economy due to the two oil crises, France wanted hope and change and elected the leader of the Socialist Party (Parti Socialist or PS). But the interesting thing to know is that the first French Socialist Party was created by the founder of a very far-right nationalist movement called Croix-de-Feu, which Mitterrand joined in his youth.

Even the current National Front in France and its leaders like Jean-Marie Le Pen or Bruno Gollnisch, defined as right extremists, are for big government and support a strong welfare state for the “true French.” Their electoral success in the 80s and 90s was actually due to their ability to take votes on the left, especially amongst the working class folks used to vote for the French Communist Party (PCF).

You’re getting my point: fascistic ideas are not a right-left thing. It actually blurs the lines created by political parties. When our two party system is becoming pretty much one party, when Specter becomes a Democrat for his career, I think there increasingly are signs we may very well be on our way to fascism. Here are signs that make me think that way:


• Willingness to not only control the economy but also human behavior (anti-tobacco laws, tax on transfats, etc…) to purify society from unhealthy behaviors that are costly to the State. (That is why nationalized healthcare is not a good thing.)
• Increasing criticism of true free-market as a model on the left and the right.
• Anti-CEO or “anti-bourgeois” sentiment helped by rare episodes like the Enron and Maddoff. (Another common trait about extreme ideologues, fascists and the left: they transform rare situations into generalities.)
• Corrupted officials who disrespect the Constitution and think it’s a living document. It would be very convenient to some if freedom of speech was a living concept, wouldn't it? In that case the Fairness Doctrine would be respectful of the Constitution, n'est-ce-pas?
• Increased corporatism of the past and current administration with the banks bailout, the “Goldman Sachs connection”, car makers and GE.
• Fascination and admiration for strong leaders like Chavez and Ahmadinejad, and veneration of Obama
• Increased anti-Israel stance on the left evolving into European anti-Semitism
• Fight to eliminate religions in our society and replace it with State morality, very much like the French revolution and Hitler tried with either the Cult of Reason or Paganism. (I’ll try to address the separation of Church and State through the other questions because I have a lot to say about this.)

Doesn’t it feel like the 1930s and what happened in Europe when fascistic movements in France, Italy and Germany were getting stronger? I may be ultra pessimistic but if the world community decides to change the global currency because of the money printing business devaluating the dollar, and if the economy worsens, it may very well feel like the Weimar Republic.

I hope I am flat out wrong. But when Liberals and Obama sympathize with gangsters like Chavez, organize parties for Ahmadinejad, bow to a Saudi king but don’t show much respect for Western allies or Israel, I think it shows our leaders don’t have much concern for Freedom or have their “rationality” pretty messed up. Europeans thought Hitler was a clown in 1938 or actually liked his socialistic ideas and we know what came next.

Am I saying Obama is Mussolini or Hitler? Obviously not. But some of his policies are fascistic. Firing a CEO is an Il Duce-like decision. Having GE serve your purpose and your economic policies to later reward them is fascistic. Even the bank bailout started with Bush and the fact that no citizen can have a say or sue the government for legalized robbery is corporatism, which is of fascistic nature.

If we as citizens don’t react to all of this, this can only get worse. The government will think it can do anything. Socialism, communism or fascism only lead to greater corruption and less freedom. That’s my #1 concern for this country right now.

58 comments:

dmarks said...

"But beyond socialism I fear a greater danger is looming: fascism coming from the left"

Well, "socialism" is the word usually used for economic fascism.

beamish said...

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions" - German labor activist Adolf Hitler, 1927

Fascism has alway come from the left. It is a product of leftist thought.

The Merry Widow said...

It all is rooted in totalitarianism, i.e., "the man on horseback", who can "save" us.

Unfortunately the education system has produced the dupes who will whole heartedly support the slitting of their own throats! They are looking fr mommy, broter are they going to get it!
G*D bless and MARANATHA!

tmw

Anonymous said...

Great article. Very insightful. I agree that the future looks bleak with the constant push by the BO administration further and further into the economic and financial system. The only glimmer of hope that I've seen is the enthusiasm to enlist in the TARP program where most were standing in line with their hands out to be "rescued" by the government have now changed their minds when they've seen what the "rescue" has entailed. When they've seen that the government wants to be directly involved in the running of the banks they are lining up to pay back the TARP, ASAP. That's a good thing, IMO.

Funny though, how there is still such a clamor for "public health care" — as if this won't be a government intrusion even beyond what was apparent with the financial rescue program. It will be more of the same on the level of directing healthful choices so as not to overburden the public health system — at the end of that road would lie the state deciding on who would receive which procedure and who will not. I guess that would please those eco-freaks who seem to think the world is over populated anyway.

Waylon

FrogBurger said...

Great quote, beamish.

The history of fascism is super interesting. Even re-reading about Miterrand, the hero of the French left was a moment of awakening itself. This guy wiretapped his opponents and the press but he went away with all this. Mind boggling.

Gayle said...

Great job on this post, Z. I don't like your conclusion, but unless we can turn things around I know that you are right. We have to... absolutely have to clean up the GOP. The RINO's have got to go. If we can't win on true conservative values, then this country is screwed!

FrogBurger said...

Couldn't agree more, Gayle. The GOP has to get rid of big-gov leaders.

christian soldier said...

So glad someone else knows that the French Rev and our Revolution -starting 1776 -have NO THING in common....
As to B Hussein O having nothing in common w/ Hitler-HMMM....
His tactics are awfully similar..
C-CS

HoosierArmyMom said...

Z and Frogburger... thank you for doing this series. I personally find the opportunity to glean facts and comparisons from someone who has lived on both sides of the pond to be absolutely golden. Knowledge is indeed empowering and I thank you both.

FrogBurger said...

HoosierArmyMom, you are welcome. I've wanted to do this for a long time. I think I'll open a blog once the series is over to keep bringing my thoughts. It's a great intellectual process. It forces me to read about history, economy and political ideas even more. I love it. I feel like I'm back in my political science, history and economy classes, except this time, I am not surrounded by Marxist professors.

Anonymous said...

Z, and Frogburger, great article and interview. A terrific concept, this series.

I echo all the comments here. We are fortunate to get Frogburger's perspective. Thanks to him for his candor and insight.

The interviewer is very good too. Multi-talented as she is, here's another job opportunity. She asks pertinent questions. Katie Couric, are you listening?

Pris

shoprat said...

Fascism is a leftist ideology that has been reduced to meaningless epitaph.

Z said...

When I met Frogburger, I just KNEW I had to share him with you all...a very good perspective and one I believe, from having lived in Paris for 4 years, is not unique. But, it's something we do not hear.

Pris...put your dukes up! You comparing ME to COURIC? (smile)
Thanks for the compliment..while not known for even-handedness much myself (except among liberal circles I know in person, funny enough, I think most of us go a little far in our beliefs to make points in this small space, can't qualify everything we say) here, I hope i'm better than BOUNCY KATIE, in many ways! Thanks!

Z said...

shoprat...and seems to be moving into America? God forbid.

beamish said...

FrogBurger,

I thoroughly enjoying your continuing series, and love that you correctly identify fascism as one among many leftist ideologies.

This is a record correction long overdue. Here in the United States, leftists try to disown their ideological forefathers in the "Progressive" movements that were cheerleading for Hitler's socialist "reforms."

One of the easiest ways to spot an idiot is to watch for the oxymoron term "right-wing fascist" from them.

beamish said...

Three things I've never seen:

1. A four-sided triangle
2. A right-wing fascist
3. An intelligent leftist

FrogBurger said...

Hi Beamish,

I think that the whole left-right dichotomy is too simplistic sometimes. I have been thinking of a visual representation of political and economic ideas along the following axis:
- Nationalized vs private economy
- Nationalism v.s globalism
- Individual must serve the state vs the individual has to be protected from the state
- Freedom of religion vs. state morality/rationality

I did some drawings and the conclusion is the same: socialism, communism, nazism or fascism are in the same region. There's no real far right and far left.

da patriot said...

Both socialism and fascism are economic systems.

Socialism is control of the economy through the direct ownership and operation of all means of production, and direct control of all market forces and activities.

Fascism is the control of the economy through the domination of private owners, by requiring them to use their businesses and properties in the 'national interest'; and the direct control of all market forces and activities.

It is certainly clear that the totalitarian system which the Dems have chosen to move forward with is Fascism. They have the control of our 'too big to fail' finacial system. They have control over the auto industry. Next on the agenda is our energy producers and the medical industry. By the time the do all of this, how much of our nation's GDP will they have defacto control?

To make matters even worse, even if we vote them out, do any of us really have faith in the 'me too' republican party to reverse any of this? I don't.

beamish said...

FrogBurger,

Your diagram sounds similar to one I plotted out in my own political science studies.

I like that you used economic freedom / property rights as the gauging factors.

Fascism can't be right-wing, at all, for the mere fact that its programs and agendas historically were aimed at eliminating property rights.

beamish said...

Da Patriot,

Colin Powell has a rebuttal to Phylis Schafly coming out called "An Echo, Not A Choice."

;)

(this was a joke, the contempt for Colin Powell is not)

FrogBurger said...

Beamish, I think the real dichotomy is between Hell and Heave. Turn the left-right axis counter clockwise and that's a lot more accurate, isn't it? :))

beamish said...

FrogBurger,

HA!

Actually, I think the diagram should have 4 points, left and right, and up and down.

Left to right measures individual power from none on the collectivist left to as much as possible on the autonomist right.

Up and down measures government size and power from totalitarianism (up) to libertarianism (down).

I'm something of a right-down-libertarian-winger, diametrically opposed to the fascists, socialists, and communists in the upper-left-totalitarian wing.

Just call me a down-winger for short.

mksviews said...

"If we as citizens don’t react to all of this, this can only get worse."

Most out there don't even know it's happening until it happens to them.

"The government will think it can do anything."

They already think that.

"Socialism, communism or fascism only lead to greater corruption and less freedom."

Yes that is true.

psi bond said...

Frog,
linking U.S. liberals with European fascists contributes nothing to serious political discourse. Do you impart your political views to young students when mentoring them?

biggirlpants said...

well said, all - well except for psi bond- i have nothing to add except my hardy thank you to both z and frogburger.

beamish said...

PsiBond,

Does inquiring about what Frogburger imparts to children contribute to "serious political discourse?"

Does serial reposting your deleted trolling inanities contribute to "serious political discourse?"

Does ignoring the clear ideological geneology of European fascism which US "liberalism" descends from make you a "serious political" debater?

Does denying that Obama is a Socialist the day he offers a Socialist's name up for nomination to the Supreme Court make you feel as stupid as you appear?

Do you expect your "seeking honest discourse" to be regarded as sincere when you won't admit to being an imbecile?

The Merry Widow said...

What I said about the public education system teaching our children to slit their own throats...pb, is a stunning example of the end result.
G*D bless and MARANATHA!

tmw

Z said...

seems to me the whole purpose of Frogburger's interview series is to show what happened in Fascist Europe and how we're following that path.
Let's hope he's discussing this with the young people he's mentoring, along with the evils of socialism: we can only hope enough children will finally understand instead of learning they're entitled to hand-outs by our government.

FrogBurger said...

PsiBond, again, use ridicule and has nothing to propose to debate my opinion as the facts are documented.

No I don't discuss politics with my Little Brother. The only thing I told him this weekend was about Memorial Day. He didn't know what it was about. So I did explain him I was grateful the US saved Europe from Hitler.

His teachers are doing a good enough job as far as brainwashing him. He already knows we killed all the native Americans since he's working on a project currently.

PsiBond, Please bring valuable information next time you speak. I feel like I'm debating a highschooler.

FrogBurger said...

Another proof of fascism taking place: "The Federal Reserve so far is refusing to disclose loan recipients or reveal the collateral they are taking in return." (Bloomberg)

Organized and legalized theft by the State is fascism. And it's not just Obama, it's all the Presidents that have worked with banks in such manner. Obama went one step above by forcing them to take money.

Deborah on the Bayside said...

Z - love the series.

Beamish - amazing quote & pithy commentary.

FB, great insights. And thank you for clearly putting fascism on the right (correct) part of the map. U.S. liberals link themselves with European fascists when they act like them. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck....

psi bond said...

beamish: Does inquiring about what Frogburger imparts to children contribute to "serious political discourse?"

Knowing what if any partisan political training Frog gives to young students in his charge is pertinent to any evaluation of his mentorship. But, of course, Frog should be commended for volunteering his service to America. As such, he's the kind of American Obama admires.

Does serial reposting your deleted trolling inanities contribute to "serious political discourse?"

Reposting makes it possible to understand the full context of the replies left up on a blog dedicated to serious political discourse.

Does ignoring the clear ideological geneology of European fascism which US "liberalism" descends from make you a "serious political" debater?

That is not a serious question, nor an intellectually honest one. The real question is whether a demeaning ideological relationship between liberalism in America and European fascism that is presently being aggressively promoted on the blogosphere by so many far rightwingers (as if on orders) has any place in serious political discourse.

Does denying that Obama is a Socialist the day he offers a Socialist's name up for nomination to the Supreme Court make you feel as stupid as you appear?

A socialist? Really? Sotomayor was first nominated to the bench by George H. W. Bush, making her the first Hispanic federal judge in the State of New York. John McCain said today she should be judged on her merits. It should be clear that dismissive, polarizing, ideological branding only makes rightwing posters look foolish and is not a contribution to serious discourse. It should be observed that not even Hannity, who is fond of cynically misquoting her on his show, has not branded her a socialist, let alone a fascist or a Nazi, or a Communist and Marxist, or a Trotskyite. (According to Trotsky, fascism was the last gasp of capitalism, long prophesied in holy Marxist scripture.) Fact: following Stalin's strategy in 1928, the far right blurs the lines between these ideologies on two sides of the political spectrum.

It's a fact that Fox News, on its website, in a detailed bio of Sotomayor, does not say she is a socialist, ley alone a fascist, or a Trotskyite. Neither does the Wall Street Journal. But the WSJ may have been influenced by the fact she made a ruling allowing the WSJ to publish Vince Foster's suicide note.

Do you expect your "seeking honest discourse" to be regarded as sincere when you won't admit to being an imbecile?

The rational person will readily recognize the above as an obsessive, infantile question.

psi bond said...

Z: seems to me the whole purpose of Frogburger's interview series is to show what happened in Fascist Europe and how we're following that path.

Frightening Frog's Little Brother with such extravagant far-right scenarios is dubious mentoring. For there is no proof "we are following that path" other than a bunch of overheated far-right fantasies of evil conspiratorial bogeymen in the supposedly bedeviled U.S. government.

Let's hope he's discussing this with the young people he's mentoring, along with the evils of socialism: we can only hope enough children will finally understand instead of learning they're entitled to hand-outs by our government.

Yes, methodically indoctrinate him with a righteous loathing of Social Security benefits for the elderly, unemployment benefits for those looking for work, payments for veterans, for the disabled, for lost wages due to maternity. Indeed, for all such government handouts. Let social Darwinism reign. The fittest will survive, in all cases. They are the strong, whom the right venerates.

psi bond said...

Frog: PsiBond, again, use ridicule and has nothing to propose to debate my opinion as the facts are documented.

The last time I listed facts for you, you didn't respond.

No I don't discuss politics with my Little Brother.

A wise decision, I would say. Especially for someone who believes as you do.

The only thing I told him this weekend was about Memorial Day. He didn't know what it was about. So I did explain him I was grateful the US saved Europe from Hitler.

Did you tell him that the U.S. had lots of outside help? It wasn't like a comic-book hero fighting evil all by its lonesome, Frog.

His teachers are doing a good enough job as far as brainwashing him. He already knows we killed all the native Americans since he's working on a project currently.

Really? I thought there were some Native Americans left around on reservations and in gambling casinos. Native Americans use to be the dominant population roaming free in this land. That's a fact.They were decimated and forced onto reservations by those awful "liberal fascists", d'accord? Or did you tell him that God-fearing Americans were convinced they were blessed with the "Manifest Destiny". And many believed the only good Native Americans were dead Native Americans.

PsiBond, Please bring valuable information next time you speak. I feel like I'm debating a highschooler.

I feel I am responding to a rigid ideologue who needs to compulsively demonize and demean liberals whenever he is given a platform.

Some valuable information for you:

The two principles on which our conduct towards the Indians should be founded, are justice and fear. After the injuries we have done them, they cannot love us.
-- Thomas Jefferson

psi bond said...

Frog: Another proof of fascism taking place: "The Federal Reserve so far is refusing to disclose loan recipients or reveal the collateral they are taking in return." (Bloomberg) .

Is eavesdropping on citizens without a warrant fascism in your view? Is punishing proscribed private sex acts between consenting adults fascist according to your loose and broad usage of the term? How about a president arrogating to himself the right to imprison a person without recourse to a lawyer for any length of time? Which Bush did.

Organized and legalized theft by the State is fascism. And it's not just Obama, it's all the Presidents that have worked with banks in such manner. Obama went one step above by forcing them to take money.

Do insolvent banks have much choice in the matter? Not all banks are accepting the bailout funds. They are not required by law to accept them.

It is a wise decision, Frog, not to infect Little Brother with the far right's anti-liberal doomsday alarmism and extreme pessimism about the demise of America. The opposite thing done by a liberal would be promptly denounced by the right as indoctrination, n'serait-ce pas?

As he gains intellectual maturity, let him decide on his own whether the far left is rational.

psi bond said...

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it’s a deceptive rightwing decoy.

psi bond said...

Correction:

As he gains intellectual maturity, let him decide on his own whether the far right is rational.

FrogBurger said...

Did you tell him that the U.S. had lots of outside help? It wasn't like a comic-book hero fighting evil all by its lonesome, Frog.

Wow, that is amazing. From whom? From De Gaulle? I'm laughing. Without the US the war will have certainly been lost. And if the Soviet Union had won it on its own, they it would have been no different than Hitler since they both sent Jews to the camps or Siberia.

I'd love for you to give me specific on the kind of help. Maybe there's something I'm missing

FrogBurger said...

About banks and the bailout. You're flat out wrong. My sister works at Wells Fargo HQ. They were forced to take the money while they are a top notch bank who did not lend money to insolvent people.

Obama's administration has told them they would not get FDIC insured if they refused the bailout money.

Not being FDIC insured and all the clients leave.

Fascism blackmailing.

FrogBurger said...

I agree my Little Brother should decide on his own. The only thing I'm teaching him is hard work, school study so he wont' be on welfare and won't have babies at 16. I guess that's bad from a lefty point of view. That must be my right wing ideology of being independent from government enslavement.

FrogBurger said...

And yes it is fascistic in a way to tell people how to have sex or make love, and yes some of Bush's policies were fascistic to me. I am a Libertarian Conservative and have a critical mind. I didn't agree with Bush's spendings, bank bailout, some Patriot act components.

But the matter is: Democrats voted for all of this as well.

So you guys should have been fighting. Where were you then?

Oh that's right: everybody misled you. The CIA did with Pelosi

FrogBurger said...

"That is not a serious question, nor an intellectually honest one. The real question is whether a demeaning ideological relationship between liberalism in America and European fascism that is presently being aggressively promoted on the blogosphere by so many far rightwingers (as if on orders) has any place in serious political discourse."

Your argument is weak. You're spinning the wheel. Bring facts! Stats! Counter arguments based on history elements or else. That's all I care about. Not if I'm allowed by YOU to draw comparisons.

Have substance please.

Honestly you're not adding anything aside from generalities, such as the US was not the only one to fight at WW2. Well thanks for the information. That was helpful.

FrogBurger said...

Far right. Being for freedom of speech and religion, property rights, free market, free trade, less government stealing your money and telling how to live your life is far right.

Is that a fact in itself?

Z said...

"As he gains intellectual maturity, let him decide on his own whether the far right is rational."

Freudian SLIP?

FrogBurger said...

At least my Little Brother, when he'll be old enough, will see that there are very good Conservatives and that we're not the freaks and mean spirited individuals the left is saying we are.

lovelyprism said...

Why is it that when a liberal leftist can't win an argument with FACTS, they start name calling?
This is a fabulous series and I do hope you start your own blog after it's done. I will certainly read it.
And thanks again Z :-)

psi bond said...

Did you tell him that the U.S. had lots of outside help? It wasn't like a comic-book hero fighting evil all by its lonesome, Frog.

Wow, that is amazing. From whom? From De Gaulle? I'm laughing.

No, the Free French or the French Underground did not win the war singlehandedly. But, to be serious, neither did the U.S.

Without the US the war will have certainly been lost. And if the Soviet Union had won it on its own, they it would have been no different than Hitler since they both sent Jews to the camps or Siberia.

Unlike Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union had no systematic racial stereotyping for exterminating Jews under its control. By contrast with fascist ideology, U.S. liberals believe in the equality of races. Nor do liberals believe that all the results of art, science, and technology are the results of white men of European descent.

Regardless of what happened in the post-war period, when the Soviet Union became a Cold War enemy of the U.S., the fact is advancing Soviet troops in eastern Europe applied needed pressure for Allied troops to advance from the west.

I'd love for you to give me specific on the kind of help. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

The facts about this are as available to you as to me. You are just missing the willingness to acknowledge them. You show only a willingness to scorn them.

Probably one of the greatest contributions to the Allied effort came from a British subject who never risked his life in combat. He is not a household name, although he was named by Time magazine one of 100 most influential people of the 20th century.This was Alan M. Turing, a mathematician who is acknowledged as the father of modern computer science. At Bletchley Park in England, he headed the attempt to break the supposedly uncrackable German Enigma code. The success of the methods he devised enabled the Allies to decipher secret German communications and map strategy that proved vital to victory. Several years after the war, Turing was found guilty of homosexuality, which was then illegal under British law. His career was essentially ended and he was forced by the government to undergo hormone treatments which ultimately led to his suicide.

While it is estimated that the U.S. lost 416,800 military in WWII, Great Britain lost 382, 700 military, France lost 217,600 military, Poland lost 240,000 military, Canada lost 45,300. Many other countries lost smaller numbers in the resistance. The USSR had 10.7 million military deaths in WWII. I don't think that, so soon after Memorial Day, those statistics should be laughed at, for other countries deserve a modicum of credit.

psi bond said...

Frog: About banks and the bailout. You're flat out wrong. My sister works at Wells Fargo HQ. They were forced to take the money while they are a top notch bank who did not lend money to insolvent people. Obama's administration has told them they would not get FDIC insured if they refused the bailout money.

According to Wikipedia, "on October 28, 2008 [i.e., during the Bush administration], Wells Fargo and Company was the recipient of $25B of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act Federal bail-out in the form of a preferred stock purchase. They did not want a bailout but were one of nine banks forced by then-Secretary of the Treasury Henry Paulson [under George Bush] to take one."

Not being FDIC insured and all the clients leave.

Recent tests by the Federal government revealed that Wells Fargo needs an additional 13.7 billion dollars in order to remain well capitalized if the economy were to deteriorate further under stress test scenarios. Wells Fargo is participating in a loan modification plan to needy customers who have been crippled by mushrooming mortgage rates.

Fascism blackmailing.

Harsh partisan name calling is not helpful. The Obama administration is making good-faith efforts to shore up the big financial companies underlying our economy.

psi bond said...

I agree my Little Brother should decide on his own. The only thing I'm teaching him is hard work, school study so he wont' be on welfare and won't have babies at 16. I guess that's bad from a lefty point of view. That must be my right wing ideology of being independent from government enslavement.

You're a good man, Frog. That's a fact, I think. And I believe Obama would agree. However, I hope you're not teaching him to never accept unemployment checks if he loses his job through no fault of his own. And I hope you are not teaching Little Brother that such government payments and others such as Social Security are means that the government uses to enslave people, a typical far right assertion.

psi bond said...

And yes it is fascistic in a way to tell people how to have sex or make love, and yes some of Bush's policies were fascistic to me. I am a Libertarian Conservative and have a critical mind. I didn't agree with Bush's spendings, bank bailout, some Patriot act components.

But the matter is: Democrats voted for all of this as well.

Liberals opposed laws making illegal unbiblical, private, consensual sexual behavior. However, I would not claim such laws are fascist in any historical way.

So you guys should have been fighting. Where were you then?

Liberals successfully pursued Lawrence v. Texas to the Supreme Court. They pursued other court cases that dismantled parts of the cynically-named Patriot Act. Blaming the other guys (liberals) for not being different, thus identifying a scapegoat ---wouldn't you say that is a fascist thing to do?

Oh that's right: everybody misled you. The CIA did with Pelosi.

Right! What patriot could vote in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 against the voluminous Patriot Act that the administration had drafted beforehand. Few knew what was in it. They were misled into thinking it was absolutely necessary. Nor was it the first time Congress was misled.

psi bond said...

That is not a serious question, nor an intellectually honest one. The real question is whether a demeaning ideological relationship between liberalism in America and European fascism that is presently being aggressively promoted on the blogosphere by so many far rightwingers (as if on orders) has any place in serious political discourse.

Your argument is weak. You're spinning the wheel. Bring facts! Stats! Counter arguments based on history elements or else. That's all I care about. Not if I'm allowed by YOU to draw comparisons.

It's all right, Frog. I, in fact, do allow you (you needn't thank me; it's a matter of principle) to draw dubious unsubstantiated comparisons and claim for political purposes demeaning equivalences between U.S. liberalism and 20th century fascist ideologies. Even though such analogies are transparently weak and purely partisan-driven. And despite the fact that no serious conservative pundit pontificating on Fox or elsewhere says any such thing. The fact is the left had no love for fascism. And modern-day liberals deplore what Hitler attempted and almost succeeded in doing.

Have substance please.

Just observing that such partisan attack pranks are not helpful to serious political discourse should be substantial enough for rational people. Your simple equation between 20th century fascism and some policies of the Bush and Obama administrations has no reputable scholarly basis.

Honestly you're not adding anything aside from generalities,

Rightwingers' linking selected liberal deeds, misrepresented and spun, to a conveniently loose understanding of fascism is fearmongering supersized and generalized and it hasn't been new for more than fifty years, as something for either side to engage in.

such as the US was not the only one to fight at WW2. Well thanks for the information. That was helpful.

I did not say the U.S. was not the only one to fight in WWII. I said the U.S. had lots of help. In point of fact, the Nazis also fought in WWII. The victorious Allied Forces were not only U.S military personnel. It would be helpful for you, Frog, not to persistently twist the facts I give you into something substantially different.

The reluctance of diehard rightwingers in the U.S. to acknowledge the role of other nations and peoples in the Allied effort to defeat Hitler and Mussolini is something else that helps to make them look somewhat odd.

psi bond said...

Frog: Far right. Being for freedom of speech and religion, property rights, free market, free trade, less government stealing your money and telling how to live your life is far right.

Is that a fact in itself?

No, it is not. It is blatant spin, a misleading statement posited as unmanipulated fact.The far right shares those laudable goals with the moderate right and centrist liberals. What distinguishes the far right is its apocalyptic vision of America as a battleground for so-called "Real Americans" versus those Americans they consider traitors. The fervent notion that liberals cum "Nazis" and conservatives cum the home-team good guys are in a life-and-death struggle is one of the far right's most important identifying features. Far rightwingers can also be identified by their insatiable need to bash liberals as the enemies of freedom of speech and religion and free markets. As well as by their frequently vehement refusal to recognize moderate conservatives as being conservatives at all.

psi bond said...

Z: As he gains intellectual maturity, let him decide on his own whether the far right is rational.

Freudian SLIP?

It may be an all-too-human proneness to typos that amuses you. But then, sadly, you seem to amuse yourself with thinking it quite proper to exploit the innocence of children by frightening them with far-out scenarios of the collapse of America at the hands of evil home-grown "Nazis"--- that is, American liberals as seen through radical rightwing eyes.

Freud doesn't frighten me. Freud's slipped, I'm afraid. You may or may not have heard this, but Freud has, in fact, slipped from his former high place in the intellectual pantheon of Western civilization. He may have been done in by Western intellectuals bearing Oedipus complexes.

psi bond said...

Frog: At least my Little Brother, when he'll be old enough, will see that there are very good Conservatives and that we're not the freaks and mean spirited individuals the left is saying we are.

I hope you are not now trying to convince Little Brother, before he's got the intellectual maturity to judge for himself, of the idea that far rightwingers, who unabashedly bash liberals as being home-grown "Nazis" and sworn opponents of freedom of speech and religion --- that these zealous folks are normal conservatives with sound political sense.

Z said...

I'll let Frogburger address your points.
Let me just ask you if this "the Nazis also fought in WWII. is supposed to be a news flash?

As for scaring children, I think the unconscienable fear mongering about global warming in little ones is as bad as it gets, but the left applauds that....

Sorry my branding your slip bothered you SO much. "all too human" ? When you argue so snidely and nastily, it's just too tempting to sieze on the slightest typo.

I'll let Beamish again best you regarding NAZIS and socialists...but, then, it's RIGHTWING SMEAR, isn't it, to link Dems to socialism!! I love that one!

Bush didn't implement the Patriot Act...do your homework. Particularly the wiretapping..
I'll bet you think the STIMULUS package was written after the inauguration, too, right? All 1000 words? Ya, right. The lefties had that ready to go and for signature and HOW IMPORTANT it was to SIGN NOW, before READING. how awful..

my gosh, you're smug. It's getting kind of fun to read, frankly.

psi bond said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
psi bond said...

I'll let Frogburger address your points.

Thanks, Z. I really hope he does.

Let me just ask you if this "the Nazis also fought in WWII. is supposed to be a news flash?

No, Z, not at all. Look at the whole context of the post again and you may discover why that needed to be said.

As for scaring children, I think the unconscienable fear mongering about global warming in little ones is as bad as it gets, but the left applauds that....

The far right is prone to applaud false comparisons. Global warming is established science just as much as the theory of evolution, which many rightwingers refuse to accept. However, the apocalyptic vision of America's future, according to which America will be brought down by liberals acting as home-grown Nazis, is not science but self-serving partisan prophesying at its worst, and not fit for innocent children.

Sorry my branding your slip bothered you SO much. "all too human" ? When you argue so snidely and nastily, it's just too tempting to sieze on the slightest typo.

Speaking of smuhgness, that is a smug assumoption. I ain't bothered. Have yurself a BAWLL.

I'll let Beamish again best you regarding NAZIS and socialists...but, then, it's RIGHTWING SMEAR, isn't it, to link Dems to socialism!! I love that one!

That's funny --- beamish, who thinks all liberals are imbeciles. Speaking of 'smug', one of your favorite pejoratives, nothing can be smug if that is not smug. Without the reliance on such imbecilic pejoratives, beamish couldn't argue his way out of a torn paper bag, let alone best anyone. Only one as partisan as you could think he could. And regarding "NAZIS and socialists", he has consistently failed to show that that is what U.S. liberals are.

And yes, Z, linking Democrats to socialists and fascists, as is being done here with ideological fervor, is a partisan smear that you are bound to love. The Socialist Party is a separate entity with different goals. As for fascists, whom Trotsky called the last gasp of capitalism, they were (thank God!) crushed in Europe by the Allied Forces in the 20th century. However, the fearmongering far right never tires of trying to resurrect them for their political advantage in order to demonize liberals as some sort of neo-Nazis (speaking of chutzpah!).

Bush didn't implement the Patriot Act...do your homework. Particularly the wiretapping.

Frog asked above where the liberals were on that one. To the extent that some parts of it were not implemented, liberal critics in support of civil rights were successful. In fact, several provisions of the bill were ruled unconstitutional.

I'll bet you think the STIMULUS package was written after the inauguration, too, right? All 1000 words? Ya, right. The lefties had that ready to go and for signature and HOW IMPORTANT it was to SIGN NOW, before READING. how awful..

You are making a false comparison. The Stimulus bill was mostly written by Congress, which included its traditional earmarks, making it harder to pass. The Patriot Act was drafted by the Bush administration's Justice Department and signed into law six weeks after 9/11.

my gosh, you're smug.

Methinks you are projecting, Z. In discussion, ad hominem remarks are your stock in trade, unfortunately. The cherished notion that illogical far right assertion bests sound sense is smug indeed.

It's getting kind of fun to read, frankly.

Your scornful self-righteousness is fun to read, too. Ya!

But, again, although I'm sure you intend no compliment, thanks.

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