So, you heard by now that Obama's taking 33,000 troops out of Afghanistan next September..............what do you think?I'd guess maybe it'll calm down over there now; after all, who tells an enemy when you're withdrawing before you withdraw? Won't the Taliban just bide their time now? Obama's people admitted to preliminary talks with the Taliban; Will we be giving them money to back down? Some think talking with the Taliban is our best best, some have doubts...what about you?
What do you think of this withdrawal and why mention it so early? Why NOW?
z
32 comments:
Are Barry and Hillary even sure they're talking to the Taliban? Hell, they don't even know who they're "saving" from Libya's oppressive anti-aircraft guns.
Most. Amateur. President. Possible.
Our combatants fought bravely to try to give these benighted people a chance, but the Afghans blew it.
It is a 7th century country and so it will remain. Let Russia and China deal with it.
Maybe now we can finally put the global community organizing fantasies to rest that statists of both parties have foolishly indulged in.
I heard a few minutes of Obama's speech regarding the withdrawal. He used the phrase "what sets America apart." I interpret that as Obama advocating the idea of American exceptionalism. Naturally Z and Ducky came to mind.
(I recently read a Wm F Buckley article where he talked about having a dog he called Ducky. You don't think WFB's dog is the inspiration for Ducky's handle, do you?)
This whole Afghanistan occupation by Western forces has been a disaster: 1. If we stay, we are invading crusaders, particularly because OBL is dead and gone now. 2. If we leave, the Taliban and their ilk will declare victory in the name of Allah.
My cousin is over there right now in the USMC. I pray that what Obama is doing won't get my cousin killed! My cousin is the only male of his generation.
But I have to say that I favor pulling out of Afghanistan. If our 10 years there hasn't made a dent in "hearts and minds," so be it. I've never favored nation-building anyway, particularly if we haven't beaten the hell out of the enemy.
I did watch all of Obama's speech last night and noted the pro-America tone. Deliberate calculation on the part of his speech writers so as to infuse his campaign and garner more votes.
Uncle Jimbo (retired SF troop) says it best over at Blackfive:
Afghanistan and the larger war against Islamist extremists is one we are quite poorly suited to fight.
They have a long war mentality and know this is a clash of civilizations; we are wondering whether there will be parking at the mall.
http://www.blackfive.net/
Add to that the reality that Western sensibilities no longer allow us to fight a war the way it needs to be fought, and the lesson we should draw is ...
If we had left in 2002, we could have claimed a victory and then proclaimed that we will bomb the living hell out of any Islamist bastards who pop their heads up.
I apologize for sounding so down, but I've been there, I once was a believer, but no more.
As I said previously, it is no dishonor to those who have fought and were wounded or died there. It was a valiant effort, and no fault can be pinned on our heroic warriors.
So by 2012 there will still be more troops deployed than when he took office, accomplishing nothing positive.
I apologize for sounding so down, but I've been there, I once was a believer, but no more.
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A believer in what, that a nation that has never had a functioning central government in recorded history would be transformed magically by being exposed to the U.S. military?
Utter hubris, and don't blame anyone but yourself for drinking the kool-aid.
beamish; The Libya situation is amazingly disjointed and unfocused.....and little or no criticism from the msm. Not even much coverage, frankly, considering what it could lead us in to.
Silverfiddle...The Afghans are difficult to categorize because there are so many different factions. Hard to put them in a box; I think that's one of the biggest problems.
I'm starting, also, to think our CIA has a big share of the blame; when Mr. Z knows more about Iraqi jets (I've described what happened during the Desert STorm), that's a problem, in my opinion. "How could you have been right and our own CIA didn't know the jets were in bunkers?"
Had the CIA known a little better where terror training camps were and taken them out, maybe that would have helped; but the country itself is such difficult terrain and that's another reason for difficulties fighting there, don't you think?
I sort of disagree with you about leaving and no dishonor to our men and women who died and fought there. When we leave it will be failure; it can only be WIN or LOSE and it says OKAY, WE LOSE. And they'll reboot, completely negating any effectiveness we'd fought to have.
BFTM: I couldn't listen to the speech...what did he wax eloquent on when he said "what sets America apart" ? That we're the only dopes who tell enemies when we're leaving and fight back home over whether we should be in a war while our poor soldiers are suffering over there feeling like they're in the midst of a tug of war and their lives are at stake?
AOW, I'm veering toward leaving, too, but my gut tells me that's NUTS with the mentality we're dealing with over there. Still, we can NEVER win, that's becoming clearer and clearer. The Afghans have not played it smart, either.
Also, did you see the exposee on how we've paid BILLIONS for hospitals, roads, energy plants which will be UNUSABLE when we leave because they literally can't afford to continue operating them without OUR MONEY? Are we REALLY that short sighted in our planning? Unreal.
but FJ IS RIGHT: Bin Laden? Who cares? He's gone....and more rise up. Whether you're for or against staying in Afghanistan, Bin Laden's death isn't really a contributing factor to that decision, in my humble opinion.
Ducky; hubris? what a damned cynic.
Joe, how much of a threat to us will there be if we leave them to their tribal wars and terror training camps?
And did you get my email???
I have a hard time with this one. Quite frankly part of me thinks this is what we should have done at the beginning. Go in, make our point about 9/11, and leave them to clean up the mess.
I don't think we should have gotten into nation building there, no real gain for us.
Punish them for 9/11 and go.
As to the timing, this was obviously a rhetorical question.
We cannot be making these decisions solely to get Hussein re-elected next year.
(cue Ducky and his attacks on Bush)
Chuck, you make excellent points.
I don't think it began as nation building, or nation changing, but it's become that.
I also think that we learned more and more about training camps throughout Afghanistan (finally..where IS our CIA, ANYWAY?) and then believed we had to cut them off at the knees for us to be safe HERE. This is the argument many use for our staying there; I'm beginning to think I'd rather our soldiers leave there and go to our borders and keep terrorists out that way.
And yes...AOW AND CHUCK:
I believe this has a lot to do with the election...it's scary enough to have someone with Obama's lack of experience making decisions, but now throw his reelection bid into the mix and that really muddies the already horrible waters.
On the other hand, he has to 'govern' (be that as it may) and we can't be thinking everything he does is for reelection posturing...that's probably largely the case, but it's very unhealthy for us to do the same thing the leftwingers did about Bush.
I don't know how we cure this divide in our country but our political divisiveness, our economy, and our appeasing , seem to make us ripe for bigger problems than we'd ever had before...from within and without.
I'd love to try to put the knives down but look what we've GOT in Obama!! How can we leave America's health care to him and people who still don't understand the government IS GETTING INVOLVED IN IT :-)? ...etc etc etc. How can we ignore all the money he's borrowed and that we don't know where much of the stimulus money IS?? Ugh
In 580 days our national nightmare will come to a close as we inaugurate our next President of the United States. May the next one be one we can be proud of.
You will find an excellent summary of Obama's speech here.
Go in, make our point about 9/11, and leave them to clean up the mess.
That has always been in the back of my mind since the get go also, Chuck.
I realize that Karzai has to walk a tightrope, but what seems to be more anti-American rhetoric from him shows me that it’s time and the fact that we now have Osama bin Laden in a watery grave, it’s time.
I question, after all this time, if Afghanistan can’t stand on it’s own two feet, if it’s worth anymore time and lives.
I don't think we should have gotten into nation building there, no real gain for us.
Especially when we the effort given by our so called allies within the U.N.
I don't know how we cure this divide in our country but our political divisiveness
I’m not so sure I want to cure that divisiveness, given if what we have now is a product of getting along, Z! Generally getting along with the other side always seems to be giving in……
I question, after all this time, if Afghanistan can’t stand on it’s own two feet, if it’s worth anymore time and lives.
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Can't stand on its own feet?
From Alexander to Obummer it's done nothing else. What are you talking about?
Ducky, don’t be a putz! You know what I meant!
Scotty, that's true; That's the problem and why I said what I did in my comment; "I'd love to try to put the knives down but look what we've GOT in Obama!!"
I remember the line when Bush was in office was that any reaching across the aisle just got your fingers cut off.
Two Republicans have walked out of the debt meetings in D.C. in the last few hours; it'll be painted by the media as stubborness and inability to hear the other side (no matter that the media never really condemned the Democrats in Wisconsin for leaving the STATE during negotiations!) when, of course, the Republicans just might have the RIGHT VIEWPOINT on the whole debt thing.
Re Afghanistan, THE KITE RUNNER is an excellent book on that...
from a review:
"In the interim between Amir's flight from Kabul and his return, the Soviets, warring factions, and the Taliban have turned it from a culturally rich and bustling place into a ghost town of beggars among the rubble and hanging corpses."
Afghanistan was a comparatively civilized, rich place of fascinating culture until the soviets and the islamist hardliners ...I can't imagine much of a positive future for those people and, it's ripe for bomb-throwers of every ilk to create havoc again/ Sadly, this time, the ilk is muslim extremism training other muslims to leave Afghanistan and hurt those of us in the West.
If Obama had any sense his speech would've said something along the lines of all troops are being sent home or "re-deployed" to the borders and if even ONE non-domestic terrorist action occurs to an American, there will be a large, dirty ashtray of a country from whence it came.
Period.
Unless and until our leaders and military understand that if you want to impose your will on another country, and that is what you are trying to do when you change cultures hundreds of years old, you need to completely demolish the past structures.
Isn't that the lesson of Japan and Germany?
It took a systematic demolition of their governments and cultures to bring them into our orbit.
The problem is that we, in what Silver calls ur western sensibilities, no longer have the desire to do that.
Maybe we would be better as a country if we just admitted that, and owned it. Then we would not be globetrotting about looking to build nations, force freedom on people, and solve the worlds problems.
Our military is for our defense. Not to make the world in our image, unless we are willing to lay waste to whatever is in our path when we go in, something I doubt we will be doing anytime soon.
Just look at the fact that we ned to get our air strikes approved by lawyers before hitting the button.
It is too bad more conservatives could not have opposed nation building and an opened unwinnable war earlier.
Perhaps together we could have pressured both admins. to get out and bring the soldiers home.
BROOKE..bravo,
I'll try a bit of sarcasm here:
But we aren't able to do what you suggest...America must just suck it up and realize it's WE who are the bad guys, and WE who must wait until a terrible attack happens again....my GOSH, Brooke, don't you know collateral damage is cruel and all OUR FAULT ...even when those muslims inside mosques in Iraq were killing our soldiers through windows and the tops of the mosques but WE couldn't shoot back because it's not nice to shoot at a religious building (especially muslim!)...that's a perfect metaphor, come to think of it.
It's okay for US to die, but not anybody ELSE, dontchaknow.
Islamists know that we can't hit them back because we don't know WHERE THEY ARE! They're playing us like fine violins.
Dave, I agree with much of what you say.
But "It took a systematic demolition of their governments and cultures to bring them into our orbit."
Thank GOD we did NOT demolish their cultures....no, we did not. The Germans gave us great minds and great literature and music and science and ...on and ON and on...as have the Japanese, but I'm not as well versed on that as I am anything German......
And they continue to do so. The CULTURES did not attack Pearl Harbor or London, I assure you.
Crazy men did followed by some crazy people.
We can't force freedom on people, I agree with you....but, in the case of Iraq, thankfully, the Iraqi people have kind of taken to it (the real people, not the hardliners). Sadly, we hear about ONE CRAZY ISLAMIST HARDLINER bombing an outdoor market and think FREEDOM IS NOT WORKING..
But nation building? Stupid. As I said above somewhere, I watched an exposee on all the billions of dollars America's spent on energy plants and hospitals and other places in Afghanistan and, when we leave, they will be unable to afford to operate them, buy new parts, repave all those roads we built when they need repaving (which is often in that heat)...unbelievable shortsighted American planners. What the...???
It's true, z. The Soviets did a number and then we turned the place into one big heroin factory. Gave them a good dose of American freedom.
I know, Ducky, it's always our fault. I'm sure nobody else is remotely responsible, especially not Afghanistan's opium growers.
The news is ripe with 'opium in Afghanistan is America's fault'...and plenty of reasons for it.
Is all of it true? Probably not. Some? Probably.
war is hell, ducky.
Z
I think standing on democratic principles is what sets the United States apart (makes it exceptional) according to the speech. I only heard a couple minutes of the speech but didn't find it too objectionable. I'm not a big fan of his speaking style where every sentence is delivered as if it had a question mark following it. It sounds to me like "you don't disagree with that, do you?"
The Soviets did a number and then we turned the place into one big heroin factory. Gave them a good dose of American freedom.
And here it is necessary to point out our resident leftist's non-existent grasp of the history of poppy farming spreading into Afghanistan alongside Islam way back in the late 7th Century, and the larger point that poppy farming isn't unique to Afghan culture.
No Ducky Wucky, I didn't believe in a magical transformation.
I thought we could kick out AQ and give them space to build a society maybe one century more advanced than they have now.
For someone who believes in the Hopey Changey unicorns and rainbows fantasies peddled by the Social Democrats in this country, you've got no room to talk.
They will be a great threat, and nobody knows how to stop them. As they develop more and more technology, they will become more and more of a threat.
Yes, I did. Will follow up soon.
I believe we will need a force in Afghanistan for a long time. The Taliban and Al Qaeda are pretty much one in the same.
If we pull out, they will take over once again. After all the sacrifices, spent treasure, and gains there, we can't call it quits.
Pulling out too soon will almost guarantee, we'll have to go back at some point, and setting a date certain for leaving is insane.
Obama's speech was purely for political reasons, which proves he does not have the resolve to keep the commitments the US has made in the War on Terror.
I'm not willing to see our military used as pawns in a political campaign, and that is exactly what this President is doing.
@ Z: You are sounding like a leftist being serious with your sarcasm!
Clueless he is absolutely clueless.
I am very concerned for our troops safety. Why doesn't Obummer just stick a bulls-eye on their backs?
Brooke, I usually say "Sarcasm" but.. you're right :-) sorry about that !!
Leticia, why can't he SEE THAT? Imagine HIM in control of American LIVES? HOLY COW!
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