Wednesday, June 15, 2011

Pawlenty.............in Thomas Sowell's opinion

Is Pawlenty Plenty?

He lacks charisma and pyrotechnic rhetoric. And that’s a good thing* (Z:see below)

The Republicans’ confused assortment of announced presidential candidates — as well as unannounced candidates and distant possibilities of candidates — seems to be clarifying somewhat. The withdrawals of Donald Trump and Mike Huckabee, as well as the withdrawal of much of Newt Gingrich’s staff, seem like a much-needed weeding out.
Although Mitt Romney has been leading in the polls, his lead over other potential rivals has been slim. Being a “frontrunner” this far ahead of next year’s nominating convention would not mean much, even if Governor Romney’s lead and his support were much bigger than they are.


The albatross around Romney’s neck is the Romneycare medical plan that he signed into law in Massachusetts. His refusal to repudiate Romneycare means that, as a presidential candidate, he would forfeit one of the strongest arguments against Barack Obama, who has Obamacare as his albatross. Nor is an about-face on Romneycare a viable option for Mitt Romney. He has already made too many other about-faces for voters to trust him after another. He has painted himself into a corner.
The articulate Newt Gingrich might be the best Republican to go toe-to-toe with Obama in presidential debates — and a lack of effective articulation has been the Republicans’ big weakness for years. Try to name a Republican renowned for fluency besides Ronald Reagan, Theodore Roosevelt, and Abraham Lincoln.
While Newt Gingrich is not at that level, he is definitely a cut above most Republican candidates in talking. He also represents a cherished moment in Republican history, when the GOP took the House of Representatives for the first time in 40 years as a result of Gingrich’s “Contract with America” election strategy.
But that was back in the 1990s, and many younger voters today may have no idea what that was all about. Worse yet, the former Speaker has shown too many signs of opportunism — including his wholly unnecessary swipe at Republican congressman Paul Ryan’s attempt to bring some fiscal sanity to Washington — to be trusted.
His own staff should know him better than the rest of us. Their recent resignations should mark the end of a very promising career that did not live up to all its promises. Even so, Gingrich performed a real service to the country as Speaker of the House of Representatives, which brought federal spending under control and produced what the media chose to call “the Clinton surplus.”
Among the other announced Republican presidential candidates, former governor Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota talks the most sense and shows the most courage. It takes guts to tell people in a corn-producing state like Iowa that you want to cut back on ethanol subsidies, because Iowa will also produce the first results in next year’s primary campaign season. And first results, like other first impressions, carry a lot of weight.
But somebody has got to talk sense about our dire economic problems — and it is painfully clear that Barack Obama will not be that somebody. The fact that Pawlenty has put his neck on the line to do so is a big plus.
Tim Pawlenty cites his track record to back up his statements. That includes reducing ethanol subsidies when he was governor of Minnesota and cutting the growth of state-government spending from just over 20 percent a year to under 2 percent a year.
Governor Pawlenty fought Minnesota’s transit unions over runaway pensions and hung tough during a long strike. “Today,” he says, “we have a transit system that gives commuters a ride, without taking the taxpayers for a ride.”
Some fear that Governor Pawlenty doesn’t have the charisma and pyrotechnic rhetoric that they would like to see in a candidate. Charisma and rhetoric are what gave us the current disastrous administration in Washington. Charisma and rhetoric gave people in other countries even bigger disasters, up to and including Hitler.
Politicians and the media may want a candidate who uses verbal fireworks, but the people want jobs. As Tim Pawlenty put it, “Fluffy promises of hope and change don’t buy our groceries, make our mortgage payments, put gas in our cars, or pay for our children’s clothes.”

* Z: I think it's only a "good thing" if we can reeducate millions of Americans, unindoctrinate them, and get an honest, unbiased media within six months.  Which can't happen.   But, we can dream.
Please send this to your friends;   they need to learn more about Pawlenty.
(thanks, Beamish)

— Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. © 2011 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

z

83 comments:

Always On Watch said...

Charisma and rhetoric are what gave us the current disastrous administration in Washington.

But can we re-educated the electorate in time for 2012?

I'm afraid that America has a huge problem with an electorate addicted to sound bytes and sight bytes.

Brooke said...

AOW is exactly right. It's going to take someone that has a real plan and the charisma to sell it to a largely ignorant and apathetic nation.

Ducky's here said...

Great quote in today's financials.

"The U.S. economy has indeed shown an ability to grow at an average of five percent over a 10-year period. The problem for Pawlenty is that all this growth came under FDR."

Z said...

Here's what I'd written at the bottom of my post "* Z: I think it's only a "good thing" if we can reeducate millions of Americans, unindoctrinate them, and get an honest, unbiased media within six months. Which can't happen."

AOW is right.

Ducky, there are at least as many "experts" who feel that the depression was worse and lengthened by FDR's actions, of course.
And of COURSE the country can grow,who doubts that?, but not when the government's in control and business is taxed into oblivion.
Oh, I just Googled your quote and it's some one-liner financial thing on Yahoo!!?
Here's better:
PAWLENTYEXCELLENTPLAN

Ducky's here said...

Yes there are, z. They believe he aggravated the problem when he TRIED TO BALANCE THE FEDERAL BUDGET.

Z said...

Link and discuss; my readers are open.

Z said...

THIS IS INTERESTING

soapster said...

If you get duped by Pawlenty you'll get your comeuppance.

Pawlenty wasn't a very good governor and all the "well he had to go up against a Democratic legislative majority" in the world ain't gonna remake this guy.

Consider:

"The era of small government is over . . . government has to be more proactive, more aggressive." ~ Tim Pawlenty, 2006

"We should take a page out of her [Elin Woods'] playbook and take a 9-iron and smash the window out of big government." ~ Tim Pawlenty, 2010

Here's a great analysis from a local radio talk show guy who has filled in for Limbaugh a number of times and whose own show has now gone national.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120373223052387643.html

soapster said...

Further, as governor of MN, Tim Pawlenty set aside $5 million to begin implementation of NASCO, an organization working to promote a centralized tracking of all transportation in North America.

An attorney friend of mine (and MN4Liberty activist) has done extensive research and obtained countless documents from MNDOT via data practices act requests on this.

http://nathanmhansen.blogspot.com/2011/04/minnesota-department-of-transportations.html

Z said...

You're not going to start on Rand Paul again here, are you, soapster? We've sung that song many times and nobody here is supporting ANYBODY who hasn't a chance in hell to get elected.

soapster said...

Funny thing. Seems you were the first to bring him up.

The only O/T thing I'll ask is how many herein are active in their BPOUs?

beamish said...

"The U.S. economy has indeed shown an ability to grow at an average of five percent over a 10-year period. The problem for Pawlenty is that all this growth came under FDR."

So, let's say Pawlenty becomes President and his economic plans fall short of goal and only get us to 4.9% economic growth (the same as under Reagan).

Isn't that still better than Obama's shrinking of economic growth to 1.84%?

Considering we need sustained 3% growth to make a dent in unemployment?

soapster said...

Pawlenty can get it to better than 5% he just needs to hire government workers to dig ditches and then hire some more to fill them up. Or, build some bombs and then blow them up.

This is the sort of productive growth that can make America prosperous (or is it preposterous?)

beamish said...

Z,

re: your "This is interesting" link.

In a word, it's demand-side economics goofiness.

My refutation:

The tornadoes in Tuscaloosa, Alabama and Joplin, Missouri created a demand for more construction workers and clean up crews.

Obviously, we need to tear down more cities to put people back to work.

beamish said...

Pawlenty can get it to better than 5% he just needs to hire government workers to dig ditches and then hire some more to fill them up. Or, build some bombs and then blow them up.

That's demand-side economics. Pawlenty is a supply-sider.

soapster said...

He's somethin' alright. His economic plan involves raising sales taxes without referendums on the unwilling slaves to pay for professional sport edifices for billionaire owners.

He will have to have them build many grand edifices in honor of our masters to bring prosperity back to America.

beamish said...

He's somethin' alright. His economic plan involves raising sales taxes without referendums on the unwilling slaves to pay for professional sport edifices for billionaire owners.

Ah, the unhinged left-wing class warfare rhetoric flows on cue. You Ron Paul "conservatives" ::cough cough:: crack me up.

Ducky's here said...

Well here's an article from a source in South Carolina, z. Just a starter. There isn't any way such a complicated topic can be covered in a page.

FDR

soapster said...

You serve your masters well Beamish. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass if someone gets filthy rich so your idiotic talking points and cliche's aren't going to cut it.

Who knew you were such a proponent of wealth redistribution? Oh...excuse me..right wing wealth redistribution.

There is something fundamentaly flawed about an individual who believes that others are a means; slaves really, to someone else's end.

I've got my own shit to pay for, explain to me why I need to subsidize a new baseball stadium for a billionaire sports team owner?

soapster said...

TPaw likes to use the boot of government to force people to wear their seatbelts and force private property owners to ban smoking on their premises so they can then come begging like slaves for government funds to build outdoor smoking patios. He is a tyrant.

soapster said...

TPaw's economic plan involves using a 9 iron to make government more proactive, more aggressive. Someone should check the grooves on that club to make sure they are compliant. It's producing alot of spin.

Ducky's here said...

It takes guts to tell people in a corn-producing state like Iowa that you want to cut back on ethanol subsidies ...

--------------------

Yes, that was refreshing.

The House tacked on a bunch of agricultural subsidies including billions for ethanol to a bill which passed today. I suspect Obummer will be happy to go along with his Republican pals.

beamish said...

You serve your masters well Beamish. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass if someone gets filthy rich so your idiotic talking points and cliche's aren't going to cut it.

I have no master save for myself. God has given me plenty of trees to burn and animals to eat.

Who knew you were such a proponent of wealth redistribution? Oh...excuse me..right wing wealth redistribution.

No, I merely believe in wealth creation. Zero sum theories are the domain of economic illiterates, like Ron Paul and his fellow leftists.

There is something fundamentaly flawed about an individual who believes that others are a means; slaves really, to someone else's end.

The only one calling people slaves here is you, Soapy.

I've got my own shit to pay for, explain to me why I need to subsidize a new baseball stadium for a billionaire sports team owner?

Because he doesn't own the stadium, your state does. This is news to you?

Z said...

Ducky..thanks...it's last words are "Are we letting doomsayers with their scare tactics cloud reason? Is corporate greed, now as then, dictating its dogma to well-financed politicians?"

Glad it's not biased :-)
And yes, it's slightly too big a situation to cover in any one page.
;

I'd like to hear how today's BORROWING from China to the tune of so much we can NEVER pay it back fits in here and if FDR did that?

Soapster..A TYRANT!
I'm voting for him if he's nominated, BELIEVE ME. Might as well vote for A TYRANT :-)
anything's better than what we've got

Bd said...

How is Health Care reform an 'albatross?' Notice I don't use that stupid term 'Obamacare' which the wingnut media has coined to distract us from the fact that this was a bi-partisan bill and the Repubicons got their insurance company buddies still making millions.

You'd rather go back to insurance companies denying coverage? Are you really willing to subject your family's welfare to this?

Get Real.

And Pawlenty is a putz. His 'Google test' is utterly stupid.

Z said...

Beamish.."No, I merely believe in wealth creation. Zero sum theories are the domain of economic illiterates, like Ron Paul and his fellow leftists."

How's the HUUUGE debt to China figure here, anyway? We're all ignoring that in this discussion about 5% growth, supply-side, the opposite-side, etc etc....

Seems to me that's the elephant in America's room and this discussion about her economy.

And, how do we create more jobs when high taxes are pushing manufacturers overseas and unions are outpricing our products here and overseas?

soapster said...

I'm hoping Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, or someone like that runs. Anyone is better than Obummer.

It's fun being against everything and for nothing.

beamish said...

How's the HUUUGE debt to China figure here, anyway? We're all ignoring that in this discussion about 5% growth, supply-side, the opposite-side, etc etc....

The debt to China? Hand them the trade deficit figures and let them keep the change.

And when they bitch, we remind them that 3% of their GDP is rent money from Wal-Mart's warehouse space in Shanghai.

beamish said...

How is Health Care reform an 'albatross?' Notice I don't use that stupid term 'Obamacare' which the wingnut media has coined to distract us from the fact that this was a bi-partisan bill and the Repubicons got their insurance company buddies still making millions.

Except for those pesky facts that barely any Republicans voted for Obamacare and Obama's handing out thousands of waiver exemptions for his union thugocracy, I guess it's a good law if it doesn't have to apply to you.

beamish said...

It's fun being against everything and for nothing.

Izzat why they call Ron Paul "Dr. Maybe?"

Z said...

Soapster; Oh, gee, I forgot 'not Lenin or Hitler'. How could I? :-)

Beamish, I think our huge debt, bigger than FDR's biggest nightmare (or dream?) does contribute to making these situations 'apple and oranges' not 'apples and apples'.
Let's get to the core of the problem :-)

Also, did you guys hear that 80% of the Obama appointees have been huge donors to his campaign. Some 'change', huh?

beamish said...

Beamish, I think our huge debt, bigger than FDR's biggest nightmare (or dream?) does contribute to making these situations 'apple and oranges' not 'apples and apples'.
Let's get to the core of the problem :-)


Well, the core of the problem is that China wouldn't have loaned America any money if they didn't think we were good for paying it back. So, what's killing our economic growth and making China jittery that they made a bad investment in America?

I'll give you a hint. It starts with an "O" and rhymes with trauma.

There's a storm going around the world markets right now called the weak global reserve currency (the US dollar), and in its wake, inflation. That storm is heading for US shores, and will hit late summer, early fall.

We've not seen "as bad as it can get" yet. But we can see it coming.

Z said...

So if you were the TRAUMA MAN (I'd say BOY, my more natural speech inclination, but I'd get accused of being racist, I'm sure..not by you, of course), what would YOU do.

beamish said...

So if you were the TRAUMA MAN (I'd say BOY, my more natural speech inclination, but I'd get accused of being racist, I'm sure..not by you, of course), what would YOU do.

Issue every American citizen a waiver from Obamacare.

Make the Bush income tax rates the permanent ceiling and cut them further.

Eliminate the capital gains tax entirely.

Use the impetus of the resulting unshackled Wall Street (all those millions of "evil" bastards with 401K accounts) and people tripping over each other to invest in the stock market as a selling point to privatize Social Security and Medicare, kickstarted of course with the $300+ Billion of unspent "stimulus" money currently being held to implement Obamacare.

You know, get government out of the friggin' way.

WomanHonorThyself said...

we sure do need leaders desperately Z..but can we beat the leftist revolution?

Z said...

beamish..sign me up.

Angel...no way

Ducky's here said...

Pawlenty can get it to better than 5% he just needs to hire government workers to dig ditches and then hire some more to fill them up.

--------------

You mean something like the Hoover dam, soapster?

We do need infrastructure repair and if you were paying attention you'd know that construction bids are coming in 20-30% under previous estimates so we have a pretty to time to take them up.

Z said...

Ducky, "We do need infrastructure repair and if you were paying attention you'd know that construction bids are coming in 20-30% under previous estimates so we have a pretty to time to take them up."

You have never worked a huge construction project in any capacity, I take it?
Also, what's the end of your sentence mean?

By the way, nobody's against fixing infrastructure or building dams

Elmers Brother said...

"The U.S. economy has indeed shown an ability to grow at an average of five percent over a 10-year period. The problem for Pawlenty is that all this growth came under FDR."

Then the bullet bubble burst and it all went to s*it.

Elmers Brother said...

FDR is a good place to finger point considring many of his programs were struck down as unconstitutional or repealed and he encouraged the entiltlement and moocher mentality that is so prevalent today.

Z said...

Elbro "he encouraged the entiltlement and moocher mentality that is so prevalent today"

he sure did.

Ducky's here said...

Man, first goal wins this one. Great series.

Major said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bd said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bd said...

.Z said: And, how do we create more jobs when high taxes are pushing manufacturers overseas and unions are outpricing our products here and overseas?

Wrong. Taxes are the lowest they've been in several decades.

beamish said...
Except for those pesky facts that barely any Republicans voted for Obamacare and Obama's handing out thousands of waiver exemptions for his union thugocracy, I guess it's a good law if it doesn't have to apply to you.


Enough Republicans on the take with insurance companies voted to get it though.

And you are repeating a Fox lie with your waivers BS. ANY company can get a waiver until 2012 to prove they will meet or exceed the Government plan. There's no patronage going on. Hannity much? Lol!


Also, did you guys hear that 80% of the Obama appointees have been huge donors to his campaign. Some 'change', huh?

Another Fox lie.

Mustang said...

Well, well, well … I guess this once again proves that BD is a liar, uncouth, and stupid.

Lisa said...

I liked Pawlenty from the start then I wasn't sure .
I even had a slogan for him "Good and Pawlenty"
Some people feel he is too "soft" to go up against Obama.
But I trust Thomas Sowell's analysis.
will anyone be "perfect"? Of course not but anyone the republicans put up will make more sense than the sophomoric speech maker we have now.
Pawlenty is a likable guy too.
Someone from the next town from where I am sent an e-mail to O'rielly about a possible Perry/Rubio Run.
Any thoughts Z?

Z said...

Thanks, Mustang! I had just finished putting that link here when my computer froze as I saw another site with the same information!

Bd...I'm afraid that your tax information is wrong, too....HIGHER TAXES

Z said...

Hi, Lisa...about Perry/Rubio? I don't know enough about Perry. I know he ticked a LOT of Republicans off when he took the stance that little girls must have that vaccine for some STD, remember?

I like everything I've heard of Rubio but don't really know that much about him, either.
Some people have questioned Obama's eligibility because only his mother was born in the USA...Rubio's born here, for sure, but his folks are not. I believe the Constitution says the applicant must be born here, and that's all...but during that birth cert. thing, there was talk about parents, too......
I don't know why.

Do you know much about Perry, Lisa?

Z said...

Ducky, congratulations on the Stanley Cup

Lisa said...

I heard about the vaccination thing too it was the HPV vaccine and he supposedly had some direct connection to the comPany who makes it. It did get overturned.
I really like Rubio and he is well spoken and has a clear strong message. Perry other than that which will probably be an issue of course the MSN will have a field day with it. I guess it's worse than getting a BJ in the oval Office .
I have heard Perry at Tea Party Events(on TV) and a couple of times on Interviews and I remember being impressed with his message and he just comes off as having a definite tone and a real direction without the rhetoric he was very decisive.
I guess we just have to wait and see . But I am confident this time around the right team will prove much more coherent than our current White House resident who is in over his head.
I hope the Republicans are smarter this year and not let people get influenced by the media choosing the candidate like they did with McCain and Obama.

beamish said...

Except for those pesky facts that barely any Republicans voted for Obamacare and Obama's handing out thousands of waiver exemptions for his union thugocracy, I guess it's a good law if it doesn't have to apply to you.

Enough Republicans on the take with insurance companies voted to get it though.

I don't really see how we can have an honest, respectful discussion of Obamacare as long as you continue to fail to admit that you're a blithering idiot.

So Obama and the Democrats passed Obamacare from the most noble and pure of intentions in bringing coverage to uninsured Americans, and the few left-wing Republicans that went along with them did it to kick back some government largesse to insurance companies?

How conveniently self-defeating your "argument" is.

So, is Obamacare the Democrats' good gift to the American people, or their evil unconstitutional regulatory sop to insurance companies?

Have you made up your mind yet? Let us know, twit.

And you are repeating a Fox lie with your waivers BS. ANY company can get a waiver until 2012 to prove they will meet or exceed the Government plan. There's no patronage going on. Hannity much? Lol!

I'm fairly certain any company that donates to Obama's re-election campaign will find it easier to get an Obamacare waiver.

Mr. Magoo much?

Opus #6 said...

Romneycare is a huge problem for me.

Scotty said...

I read this morning that the waivers are now close to 1400

Bd said...

Mustang said... Well, well, well … I guess this once again proves that BD is a liar, uncouth, and stupid.

Wow! You're kidding. Politicians giving something to contributors and supporters? Diabolical! Lol!

Show me where it's 80% like you said.



Z said...Bd...I'm afraid that your tax information is wrong, too....HIGHER TAXES

Sorry, you're wrong:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Q3K&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1073&bih=620&q=taxes+on+business+lowest+in+decades&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=


beamish said: "I don't really see how we can have an honest, respectful discussion of Obamacare as long as you continue to fail to admit that you're a blithering idiot."

I get threats to kick me off the board when I throw out insults like this. You and your minions seem to get away with it all the time. What about it Z?

Wtf is your main problem with Health Care reform. You rather see a family member denied coverage and end up dying...LIKE I EXPERIENCED???

And yes, he did compromise with the GOP and insurance companies are making record profits. That's a fact.


I'm fairly certain any company that donates to Obama's re-election campaign will find it easier to get an Obamacare waiver.

I 'fairly certain' you're FOS, lol! Your arguments are cynical and ingeniousness.

Elmers Brother said...

Ingeniousness? Uh...huh? Did you mean disingenuous? LOL!

Z said...

Bd...you need to read our links trying to educate you. Mustang's said "But the percentages are much higher for the big-dollar bundlers. Nearly "80 percent of those who collected more than $500,000 for Obama took 'key administration posts,' as defined by the White House," the report said"

Every report I saw includes this figure.

As for the taxes? You don't think I saw all your links? :-)
I believe stats, not opinions...

As for Beamish? He's a friend; you're not. simple. You've never been REMOTELY pleasant and even insult me and my readers. Gee, I WONDER why he can stay and YOU DON'T?
Plus, I'm really doing you a favor sometimes by deleting you the few times I do because you tend to embarrass yourself.

By the way, why WOULD lefties come to an avowedly, very proudly Conservative blog and...slam Conservatives?
What I THINK it is is that you think we only watch FOX, like you seem to only see liberal news, and that FOX isn't fair and balanced. YOu see, FOX has both sides in 90% of its conversations...CNN has maybe 10%(Now, under pressure)...the networks? rarely.
So, maybe you think you're teaching us? :-)

Ya, Beamish is a friend...he gets rowdy, I forgive. But, he's also brilliant and I'm sure that bugs the (@#*&$(@#*& out of you. Sorry.

Z said...

Elbro, I was trying to avoid that, lest I embarrass Bd TOO MUCH.

But thanks :-) (heh)

Mike said...

Why does everyone assume Bd meant "disingenuous" when he said "ingeniousness"? He may well have been trying to say that beamish's retorts are "ingenious."

bftm

Mike said...

Z
I agree with Bd that you should not delete him. I just don't have time to monitor the blog 24 hours a day, and when I see a comment that says "Bd, I'm deleting you," I can only wonder what gem I missed this time.

bftm

Z said...

Mike.."Ingenious"..good one.

And yes, sometimes, as you've seen, I"ve left stuff I'd have deleted but it's just too revealing so I leave it :-)

beamish said...

I get threats to kick me off the board when I throw out insults like this. You and your minions seem to get away with it all the time. What about it Z?

That you are a blithering idiot is merely a statement on incontestable fact. Had I said that you were ugly and your mother dresses you funny, that would be insulting.

Wtf is your main problem with Health Care reform. You rather see a family member denied coverage and end up dying...LIKE I EXPERIENCED???

Yes. It's a tragedy that I can't watch your family member die on YouTube with popcorn.

beamish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beamish said...

In other words, Bd, until "lack of insurance coverage" is listed as a disease in the New England Journal of Medicine or officially codified as such elsewhere, I have the same concern for your dead family member as your family and community that didn't step up and voluntarily pay for their health care.

Let me guess. You and none of your extended family could spare time away from trolling the internet to come up with money to cover your dying family member's health care.

I find it suspect that you have genuine concern for your fellow Americans when you won't even lift a finger for your own family.

Bd said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bd said...

But thanks for revealing your true disgustingly mean self in you last few posts. You are the quintessential nasty wingnut, wrap yourself in the flag, carry a bible and spit on fellow Americans.

The tens of thousands could not be covered and many assets including houses were sold. Treatments were cut off by the insurance company. This was happening everywhere. You really never heard of such a thing?

Why the hell should anymore in this great country of ours have to hold a spaghetti dinner at the local Legion to help keep someone alive.

beamish said...

But thanks for revealing your true disgustingly mean self in you last few posts.

You're welcome.

You are the quintessential nasty wingnut, wrap yourself in the flag, carry a bible and spit on fellow Americans.

And you are the quintessential cognitive dissonant leftist, spending money to play on the internet while your family could use the money with their medical bills.

The tens of thousands could not be covered and many assets including houses were sold. Treatments were cut off by the insurance company. This was happening everywhere. You really never heard of such a thing?

Sure I have. People who sell their houses and move into accomodations befitting their income level free up money for their medical treatments. Parking in a street instead of a garage vs. dying uninsured while playing XBox.

Why the hell should anymore in this great country of ours have to hold a spaghetti dinner at the local Legion to help keep someone alive.

Because doing for yourself has a proven track record of success?

Bd said...

Wow, you are quite the Christian. And what you are spouting are Communist principles.

Your lack of true intelligence make this too easy beamish. Lol!

Z said...

Bd, "hy the hell should anymore in this great country of ours have to hold a spaghetti dinner at the local Legion to help keep someone alive."

NOW you're talking!!...THAT is what this country used to run on so well....This
"great country of ours" was great because people cared about others enough to chip in.. NOW you're getting it.It gave a sense of community; the rich gave more because they wanted to, weren't robbed for it...beautiful story.
By the way, Beamish is brilliant.
that you can't compete and call him stupid doesn't make it so...trust me.

Are you suggesting that, because we don't like Obamacare, we all think health care in this country is perfect? REALLY?

Elmers Brother said...

No he's suggesting that gubmint is all benevolent.

Bd said...

Really Z? You really believe as the only hope to save a family member whose insurance company has denied them coverage is to hold community benefits? And how much do you think that will over for a hospital bill running into the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars? You really want the jeopardize the life of an offspring, husband or parent in this manner?

I know a drummer of a band famous in the 80's. He had a stroke. To pay for his expenses his family has to sell his drum sticks on ebay. You don't find that the least bit degrading? It will happen to you, I guarantee it.

So, you guys are fine if mega corporations make record profits, lay off people and then turn around and allow average Americans, YOUR people, die due to denial of coverage?

This proves to me wingnuts would rather risk the lives of their own family members for their narrow and wrongheaded political beliefs. The meanness and hypocrisy in some of the posts here a palpable. And you seem to be fine with it. Shame on you.

Z said...

Bd...you really think those stories don't move Conservatives, too?
Or, BETTER YET!, that none of us has gone through hard times? :-)

My insurance has worked just fine, thanks....and, had it not, I know friends and family would have kicked in when my husband died 1 1/2 years ago.
Yes, I think we need to help...but Obamacare? NEVER.
I know too many doctors who voted for him and now HATE HIM and his stupid plan.

One doesn't force others to pay for their neighbors in America, BD...One doesn't denigrate the successful and make them feel guilty for having lovely lives of luxury...
Do we encourage community/family help when a neighbor is in trouble, yes. Absolutely.

Bd said...

So tell me what your problem with HCR is exactly? You'd rather insurance companies deny coverage and force people to have bake sales to safe a family member?

So you have good health insurance. Good! So do I. But I feel for those who don't and I'd gladly pay more taxes to cover everyone. Even children. Are there some that don't pay as much into it and are not deserving of it. Yes, to the first part and no, I take the Christian route with the second part.

Our country ranks 37 in health care delivery. We are the ONLY civilized country in the world a health care plan based on profit. It kills our economy and our citizens.

And yes, in this country we pay taxes and we pay into social security and medicare. YOU benefit from it and others do too.

I have no problem with the wealthy but even Trump said if they paid their fair share of taxes, we'd solve our problem and won't have to talk about cutting medicare for our seniors like draconian Ryan plan.

Pris said...

"I know a drummer of a band famous in the 80's. He had a stroke. To pay for his expenses his family has to sell his drum sticks on ebay. You don't find that the least bit degrading? It will happen to you, I guarantee it."

BD, if you think it's a big sacrifice to sell a set of drumsticks to save a relative's life, you've got a bigger problem than I thought.

No, it's not degrading, it's having one's priorities in the proper perspective.

Btw, I'd take degrading any day to save a loved one's life. Get real.

You speak of healthcare delivery, but what about the quality of healthcare? Ours is the best in the world. Why?

Because of the profit involved. It invites the best of the best to get into medicine. Whether you like it or not, the profit motive is an incentive and a magnet for excellence.

Furthermore BD, when the govt. denies healthcare to someone because it's rationed, or not cost effective, where then does that person turn to?
After all, the govt. will be the be all and end all, won't it.

You see BD, there are no guarantees.

The difference is if we're free to find a way, there's a good chance we'll find it. Whether we take out a loan, hold fundraisers, or have to sell our house, it's up to us.

If we're at the mercy of the government there will be no other options open to us. What the government giveth, the government can take away.

Z said...

Pris, thanks, you beat me to it :-)

Remember blogger/friend Elmer's Brother's sister couldn't get that machine she needed after having suffered breast cancer so her family and friends (YOU, included!) chipped in and they got almost the amount of money to buy the machine for her and BANGO, the insurance company's now providing it for her after all! Great stuff; THAT is the kind of community organizing AMerica is REALLY about; not libs going around voting for poor black people like my friend in Watts witnessed every election season...no, not cheating our country out of dignity and honor in voting through Obama's or Alinsky's idea of community orgnizing;
this is REAL community organizing; EVERYBODY chipped in for Elmer's Brother, including a famous boxer who put her plight on his website...I had it here and brought in approx $500!...
fabulous.

Bd said...

Well sorry. You're wrong.

We have ONE of the best health care in terms of quality but it's not delivered as effectively as in other countries.

Let's hope when you get sick you won't have to rely on selling your house, your children's inheritance or your crap on ebay to get effective care. Because the insurance companies clearly don't care. Profit driven health care systems do not inspire quality, it limits or denies services.

You are uninformed. The 'govt.' is not involved in HCR. It's still the insurance companies.

Z said...

Bd...sorry, but this just might be THE most stupid thing you've said. Don't you study this stuff?

"You are uninformed. The 'govt.' is not involved in HCR. It's still the insurance companies."

Please call all my ex-liberal doctors and tell they who've studied all of this and rec'd information that they're wrong; it'll be a great relief :-)

How many insurance companies do YOU think will stay open when their excellent coverage and allowing doctors to make our decisions with us is STOPPED because they can't compete with the inferior, complicated healthcare of Obama's plan's costs? ANd then, of course, Obama's plan will rise in cost and we'll.
oh, what's the use. Bd. believe anything you like; just go away, it'll save me deleting time. thanks.

you never ever answer my question WHY ARE YOU HERE?

beamish said...

Wow, you are quite the Christian. And what you are spouting are Communist principles.

I'm failing to see how my status as a Christian is jeopardized by balking at paying for your family's health care so you can sit at home and play XBox. Could you cite me a verse of Scripture supporting this position?

And since when did championing keeping my income and property for myself and my own needs instead of giveng them up for yours become a "communist principle?" Can you cite the essay from Karl Marx or Friedrich Engels that champions private property?

I do believe I've already asked you to admit that you are a blithering idiot, Bd. Why can't you see what everyone else readily sees?

Pris said...

"Let's hope when you get sick you won't have to rely on selling your house, your children's inheritance or your crap on ebay to get effective care."

Bd, my children's inheritance? What a fool you are. As we speak, the Obama thugocracy is slated to take 55% (inheritance tax) of that inheritance from them. Then of course they'd take the rest in taxes, to pay for the damn healthcare and the rest of your precious nanny state.

You really are a waste of time.

Mike said...

In the spirit of compromise...

There are many people who don't want to be forced into a health insurance system. How about leaving them fend for themselves with their savings, any insurance they choose to buy and whatever assets their friends and families are willing to donate in the event that medical care is required.

There are many people who think everyone is entitled to health care. How about these people enter into some type of social contract wherein they insure each other. There are enough people who to subscribe to this way of thinking that they wouldn't have to worry about some unforseen circumstance taking all their life's savings; there would be enough people in the contract for the law of averages to apply.

So, free market solutions for those who to subscribe to that way of thinking. Universal coverage for the advocates of that philosophy. Everyone is happy, right?

bftm

Z said...

mike...no way would that work.

As it is, insurance companies will be closing very soon; they can't compete by giving great health care anymore because the cheap Obama crap is too beguiling.

Mike said...

Z
The "universal coverage for those who want it" plan I'm advocating wouldn't be government subsidized. Those who want into that policy pay into it. An individual person might take out more than he put in, but as a group they cannot take out more than they have put in. They would operate independent of the government.

bftm

Z said...

Mike, I just don't think that any plan could compete with Obama care...until Obama care becomes higher priced to us than even our private ins. is now, which will happen.