Tell me why we shouldn't.
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62 comments:
Z, the only reason I vote against the voting age being raised is the military.
It is not fair (I really do hate to use that word) to the men and women that put their lives on the line from the age 18 on, to have their voice taken away.
Perhaps, like drinking alcohol, there can be a dispensation for active military from the ages 18 to 21. I'll be the first to admit that people shouldn't just be allowed to vote willy nilly. That's precisely how we got into this mess.
Our founders originally set it up so that you must have some financial means to allow you to vote. i.e., they requirement to own property. It gave the voters something to put at stake in their voting choices. Personally, I have no problem raising the voting age to 30 and requiring land ownership again. So much for 90% of the Obamaniacs on campus.
Greywolfe, I'm not sure about land ownership but I am sure people should have to pay taxes to vote...or soldiers, I totally agree with you and am glad you brought up that point.
I think we should lower the voting age to 17, but require military service in order to vote (Go Robert Heinlein).
Lower the age?!?!? Show me a 17 year old that can think above the waist and I'd MAYBE consider it.
17 year olds are by and large, idiots. They have more hormone than red blood cells and they are full of the useless garbage that the public screwed up school system pumps them full of for 13 years. 17 year olds voting? Please.
I agree the voting age should be 21. In these times even that sounds too young, but it's better than 18. Most 18 year olds don't care enough to vote anyway.
Responsibility, paying their own bills and taxes is important.
Yes it's true that military service should be considered, but think about it, those on active duty haven't had their votes even counted as far as we know, for three general elections!
Pris
What are the statistics of those between the ages of 18 and 21 yrs of age actually voting? Has to be pretty low (except those serving in the military. I bet those stats are polar opposite). Obama skewed the stats this last time around.
The Obama administration are already pushing a radical energy plan down our throats that will cost us trillions more.
For the life of me, I don’t understand why people can’t see the disaster that Obama is.
To my everlasting shame, the first ballot I ever cast was for Jimmy Peanut.
Now, I was 21 years old; the law to give me the vote at 18 came too late.
I'm not sure that any still in college and never having worked a job with tax withholding should be allowed to vote. I guess that makes me guilty of "age prejudice."
Greywolfe is correct: college campuses are loaded with Obamamaniacs. The leftists profs have seen to it.
I'd like to know why someone suddenly becomes more circumspect and insightful by virtue of enlisting.
Either 18 year olds can vote or they can't. As for the military being a privileged voting class, bump that.
There's a world of difference between an individual who has given something to the country, like a veteran, and the perennial "all for one and none for all" type. I am sure the military people have a more valid perspective on life than many who haven't served. But disenfranchisement invariably leads to alienation and disorder so I would not use that as the bar for voting, much as the idea appeals to me. I think if you are a citizen, no matter how big a moron you are, you should be able to vote so long as you are not in prison or a graduate there of. Of course, the current regime would not agree with that, since they find veterans, gun owners, church goers, anti-abortion people and a lot of others to be unreliable, dangerous , and odious. If you don't stand in the herd and bleat "praise The One" you are anti-social and you shouldn't have a vote, I'm sure Henry,Nancy, Charlie, Barbara , Diane and the other ruling elite would agree.
PRis, you're right..many military votes were not counted, especially from Pennsylvania.. THAT has to change, whether the left likes their votes or not.
DaBlade, but that shouldn't matter...it's principle.. They just SHOULDN'T vote at 18. And, I think young people will be voting more and more, don't you? Of course, some Conservative college type called into some radio show yesterday (Can't remember which) and said it so well; that young people he knows mostly just haven't a CLUE, they don't know their constitution, they don't really care, but everything around them is so skewed left that they almost don't know different or have been told other ways of looking at things make one unthinking or bigoted or whatever...that's unAmerican, too.
Dude...3 people I know, one extremely liberal doctor, have told me they regret their vote ...all in the last 3 weeks or so.
AlwaysOnWatch; wouldn't you think those profs would have more integrity? Perhaps they don't understand the constitution or that Americans once got ALL sides of an issue in the media, etc., either.
Ducky; your response is revealing..as if being able to shoot makes one politically wiser? That's absolutely not the point.
Giving your life, consciously knowing you might die for your country and being okay with that just MIGHT make you worthy of having your vote count, you see.
Or, maybe you don't? Why not?
Hermit..but what about the age of a non-military? You think 18 is okay?
Why not, z? It's stated in the post. I DO NOT under any circumstances favor making the military a privileged class. Simple.
If we are going to let 18 year olds vot then we let them vote. Simply because some 18 year old enlists because its the quickest route to becoming a cop on some small town police force, 25 and out with a good pension and no heavy lifting DOES NOT mean that person is any less addicted to the Nanny state than your favorite targets.
I know, Ducky...to you, nobody would fight for this country without knowing he had, in your opinion, an even more heinous goal of being a police officer in an American town, promising him a cushy retirement.
It's all about getting something back to you....not self sacrifice, fighting for your country;
I know, Ducky...
I would leave the voting age at 18 because that is the age at which an American citizen can be tried for crimes as a adult as well as the age at which begins any possible draft call ups for conscription into military service.
It's part of the rite of passage into American adulthood. You can go to real jail for crimes, possibly get sent to war whether you volunteered for military service or not, and vote.
No heavy lifting? STFU Duhkkky...the only thing you know about heavy lifting is picking up the next nefflix out of your mailbox.
The 2008 election made me want to raise to voting IQ to something higher than cretin.
Greywolfe, one observation. People serving in the military do vote, but Democrats routinely toss thier ballots in the trash. So being able to vote doesn't count for much when ballots are excluded from being counted.
We have drivers exams to weed out individuals who shouldn't be allowed to operate a motor vehicle. I think potential voters should have to pass an exam, too. If an 18 year old can pass the test, then let him/her vote.
I notice that duck-wad doesn't want a "privileged military caste." I don't either; but I do wonder why he employs a double standard. Ducky is the poster child for the snotty upper-echelon liberal caste; and while he rejects pmc for people who serve their country, he thinks that the dregs of society should benefit from income redistribution.
Regarding the Ducky commenter, see what happens to people in later life when parents over-medicate their children with Ridallin?
Sam
Sam, it's YOU, THAT Sam! Thanks...
I just commented at your site.
AFter watching your video, I'm sorry you had to read Ducky's comment.
Mustang, how is allowing a boy to vote who's willing to die for his country creating a "privileged military caste"? Maybe I'm missing something...?
To me, it's simple: if you're willing to DIE for her, you ought to have some say-so in what she does.
Elbro and Cube :-)
Duhkkky nanny state beneficiaries that we rail against are those unwilling to work. If you think the military is a free ride then I'd like you to meet my friends the Robinsons who lost their oldest son in Iraq or my own children who endured seasons of separation and missed birthdays etc. Not to mention the uncertainty of their loved one never making it home.
Equating military service to the dregs of society is like you asserting that you stayed faithful to your wife because you only had sex with someone else once.
If you love your country more than you love your life you will take better care of it. If you see the government simply as a source of revenue for yourself and your friends than your vote is dangerous to America at large (and yes there are some conservatives who vote that way, no one is denying it, just like there are a precious few people who vote liberal on misguided principle rather than greed.)
If you're too self-important to risk your life for your country than how can I trust you with power.
Perhaps instead all congressmen and women, Senators, Presidents, Federal Judges, cabinet members, Federal Czars and Bureau chiefs should be required by the Constitution to be military veterans. That would put a barrier between the self-absorbed and power.
Concur.
COMPLETELY concur.
BZ
I am of the opinion that once you are considered an adult, all rights should be accorded.
Driving age should be 18, you can be tried as an adult, vote, and drink at 18, IMO.
Z,
I seem to fit the bill for the American slacker that Ducky feels is unworthy of exclusive voting privleges for fear of creating a ruling Shogun dynasty.
My first vote was for Nixon in 1972.
I filed an absentee ballot, that I hope was counted, from Kadena Air Base, Okinawa after returning from my Southeast Asia vacation. I can't say much for the lodging accommodations.
I appreciate Greywolfe for bringing this argument to the discussion. I don't think that those who place themselves in harm's way should be denied their voice in their government. Their sacrifice qualifies them to vote.
As for getting a PD job in a small town that doesn't require much heavy lifting, it was either that or get a job as an editor and nurture my taste for obscure films and art. I apparently wasn't smart enough for that, so I went to the police and got a cushy pension. Messy, dangerous work, but honorable, I think.
I liked it so much, that I'm working for another pension. Sometimes my selfishness drives me to distraction, but then I pop another beer in the family room of my palatial mansion and the guilt ebbs away.
Let them eat cake!
I left out an "I" in privilege. Sorry
i'm with brooke (and sort of) with ducky on this one. either everyone can or can't vote at 18. however, i also concur with elbro and the others who say that the military is not a free ride. it isn't. and i don't believe most people go into based on what they can get out of it (school, a cushy job in some small town usa police department, ect.) - however i'm certain those people don't exist.
a requirement to own property really isn't any difference than requiring a poll tax and that was specifically denied by the 24th amendment to the constitution. however i do sort of like the idea of passing a test on our history and the constitution in order to be able to vote. but try getting that one passed.
cripes to listen to acorn, ducky and their ilk we don't have the right to demand proof that someone is who they say they are and that they're entitled to vote. can't see any of them agreeing to this one...
but g-man, robert heinlein DOES make a damned convincing argument for 17, doesn't he?
oops - i meant to say "however i'm certain those people do exist."
The 18 year olds I know don't know SQUAT, folks.
18 year olds who aren't serving this country can't vote.
Welcome to the land of QUEEN Z! :-)
I'm with Heidianne about requiring a test on American history and the Constitution except I hate to think what the Lefties would do with it when they get in position to teach the necessary classes for that purpose, which of course they will. Or write the books or whatever. Really, we can't win.
Very interesting discussion! I don't mind the age limit of 21 to vote partly because I remember how I was at 18. I certainly wasn't concerned about the state of my country. I was trying to figure out what the heck I wanted to do and how to go about it. Now I know that not every case is like mine, but I think at 18 you don't have the knowledge of what is right for the country. Then again, there are 35 year olds that are just as oblivious. :-)
I know a history test wouldn't fly...heck, let's face it, I'm sure I wouldn't pass! And our kids today? ARE YOU KIDDING? (hey, maybe that IS a good idea!?)
Property ownership is too high a bar and plenty of good voters don't own....
military should vote.
But TAXES..at least, at 21, they're a bit closer to paying taxes.
We need people voting who have a big stake in society, not those who want to life OFF of society...
please respond! (off to a mtg...see you later...I'm loving the conversation and am so grateful to you all)
xx
wow interesting discussion Z!
oh don't get me wrong, z - i don't think that an 18 year-old has the wherewithal to vote intelligently. however, if you're going to allow some to vote at 18, you must allow all.
let me take it to the next logical step - i wanted desperately to join the military, but they wouldn't have me because of my severe asthma. i was more than willing to put myself in harms' way, however it wasn't to be.
if only those who served in the military were allowed to vote at 18 were allowed to vote, i would still be excluded. so it would be an elite caste that pertains only to those who can serve. i understand the alternative is galling, however fairness is not a concept we can guarantee...
i just don't think this is something for us to get behind.
I agree with Heidianne.
But this is Queen Z and I disagree! :-)
Heidianne and Elbro; Are you against the military voting under 21 or are you against voters having to be 21.
In ZLand, I'll concede the military thing..Let them die for their country but have no say so about what happens in that country (ya, a tad bit of sarcasm, but this IS ZLand and I am the Queen, after all !!!! I'm laughing my tuckus off here right now)...
naaa.that's not happening in ZLAnd!!
So...leave it at 18. WHY? (forget the military for this argument..)
We shouldn't shouldn't...we should.
As everywhere in real life, something has to be at stake when taking an action, or the action would not be necessary.
Voting is no different. The only possibilities are that either property or money (i.e. taxes) are at stake.
Right now, this society is not just since not everyone is treated equally. There is absolutely no reason why 50% of the population pay no taxes. And it is these 50% who then vote for those who keep it that way, in other words who are FOR distribution. That has nothing anymore to do with democracy. That is as undemocratic as it gets. And that is true for a lot of other reasons.
Coming back to the point. Germans pay a lot of taxes - but only about 10% don't pay taxes. Everybody else pays, even if it is little. That is much more "equal treatment" since everybody feels the pain when taxes are raised.
Since one can't have it both ways: I am clearly for the following conditions for voting (a) 21 years (for many of the reasons which have been mentioned here by other commenter), and (b) only those who pay taxes. In addition, it would be healthy, as mustang said, if a "voting maturity test" be introduced.
Mr.Z
"I'd like to know why someone suddenly becomes more circumspect and insightful by virtue of enlisting."
Did you ever serve, Ducko?
There is some fast growing up, heightened discipline, and great responsibility imparted to those young men in the military.
I hate to require a litmus test for voting, but if there were a worthy one, military service would be it.
It has been posted that people should be allowed to vote because at the age of 18, people can be tried as adults. The number of holes in this argument are more than in a good piece of swiss cheese.
In many states, teens are being tried as adults when they are as young as 14 or 15. Do you really want someone to vote who believes that they should be allowed to do whatever the rest of their friends parents let them do? And the reason? Because its only fair.
I swear before the Almighty that I will slap the next person that says the reason for any Federal or State policy is fairness. There is no such thing as fairness. It's a myth much like the easter bunny, Santa Clause, or intellectually honest liberals.
On the idea of tests to be able to vote: It would never fly, Sotomayor would vote to strike it down like she did for the white and hispanic firefighters. And just who would be allowed to make up the test? Would we be using real history or the left-twisted version that our children learn today?
And as for people that don't like the idea of dispensation for Military, it's already being done with the right to drink. Active military members age 18 on a military reservation can drink when other 18 year olds can't. Some are trusted with the choice and some aren't.
Simply because some 18 year old enlists because its the quickest route to becoming a cop on some small town police force, 25 and out with a good pension and no heavy lifting DOES NOT me
an that person is any less addicted to the Nanny state than your favorite targets.
Excuse me? Perhaps you see things this way because you haven't served. Sure folks decide to serve for any number of reasons some noble some not, but one thing remains unprotracted. They have decided to expose themselves to the risk that they will hand over their lives to protect unappreciative louts like you home resting peacefully and snug in your bed. The willingness to subject oneself to that level of risk for the benefit of others should be rewarded. I know I certainly haven't reaped any huge benefits for my service. It certainly wasn't a fast route to anything other than a body that is aged beyond its years and a foul disposition toward those who denigrate the selfless sacrifice of others have made for them.
I kinda/sorta like the original idea of being a property owner (and I do understand the reasoning of that, back then - and it was not honorable), but before people can vote for how the country is run, they should be willing to contribute. I understand that everyone goes through times when maybe they cannot contribute, but let's say you have no income for five years because you have not worked for five years and you are not disabled or of retirement age, maybe you should not be voting for awhile.
I think our military should vote at age 18, assuming they are citizens. If they are not a citizen but are serving, they must wait to vote.
Okay, I'm only half-hearted on the property owners but, let's face it when you work to own property, you care a bit more about what kind of government you are electing.
Thanks, Mr. Z...I'll buy tonight :-)
Greywolfe: NO SANTA CLAUSE?????? I didn't know 18 yr old soldiers could drink? I REST MY CASE!
Hey, G-Man..."The willingness to subject oneself to that level of risk for the benefit of others should be rewarded. I know I certainly haven't reaped any huge benefits for my service"
Yes, to the first statement, THANK YOU SO MUCH to the second....for your service.
OKAY, PUT ASIDE MILITARY DUTY:
SHOULD WE RAISE THE LEGAL AGE TO VOTE? (or will ACORN just falsify all the background stuff so 18 yr olds will vote (Leftwing), anyway?)
My favorite laugh during the campaign was ROCK THE VOTE saying "We enourage Democrats AND Republicans!" I mean, you can't make that UP!
Raising the voting age won't make much difference. As that quacky leftist who hangs around here getting his ass whipped every day demonstrates, age is no sign of wisdom. Plently of adult fools around who get to decide what to do with other people's money.
The only thing that'll make any difference is to make voting restricted to those that pay taxes or have at least paid taxes and those who served their country in some form. Sorry quacky, attending hussein o rallies and feeling tingles, doesn't count as serving your country.
MK, and all...I'd settle for 18 years old and older; BUT MUST PAY TAXES.
Greywolfe,
It is true that some states will try minors as adults for particularly heinous crimes.
It is not true that any state will try anyone 18 years or older as a minor for any crime. Once you're 18, you're a "adult" by the law, whether you're mature and responsible or not.
As we are a nation of laws, not men, the adult / minor distinction is set at 18 years.
I think the question is one of lifespan. Back when the voting age was lowered to 18, 18 years was nearly a third of someone's life expectancy.
Alexander the Great was a military commander in his father's army at age 16 and conquered the known world for his own empire from the time he was 20 to his death at the old age of 32.
Yeah, kids today only conquer worlds on their X-Boxes, but still... did "maturity" head off into the future with the increase in lifespans in the last 150 years?
I hesitate to think so.
MK makes a valid and hilarious point:
As that quacky leftist who hangs around here getting his ass whipped every day demonstrates, age is no sign of wisdom.
And how old is Al Gore again?
Granted, if a person can serve and possibly die for their country at the age of 18, then the voting age should be 18. I am not opposed to a competency test though... I have never been for anyone who votes without being informed.
Leslie..I got your book todaaaay! I WISH I could start it NOW but my mystery group meets next week and I can't interrupt the book I'm reading or I'll lose the flow!!
Yes, I can't imagine a soldier fighting and not voting.
I still think nobody should vote till 21 and I can't imagine a test because we'd only have maybe 1 million informed voters! (me, not included, I have to admit)
"if a person can serve and possibly die for their country at the age of 18"
Actually you can serve at 17 (I did) that's why I initially proposed lowering the voting age to 17.
Allow 18 year olds to vote, provided they take and pass a class on American Government and history.
In fact, I think that should be a prerequisite to voting for everyone.
Make it a three hour seminar to give them the basics about an American citizen's rights and what things to consider when voting. No bias. Just facts.
After that, if they still vote stupid, that's their problem.
But the important thing is to try to make sure they are properly informed before they vote, to avoid the old popularity contest type of voting that characterized the last presidential election.
G-Man..17?? WOW!
Mark..you said "After that, if they still vote stupid, that's their problem."
Sadly, it's OUR problem, look at who we have now!
I read or scanned all comments. Am I the only one who wants to raise it to 25? It was lowered to 18 the year I turned that age. At the time I thought it was going the wrong way.
Why?
Think about it. When the voting age was first set at 21, men were generally married with families by then -- and long earning a living. That means your ticket to vote came after a few years of responsibility under your belt.
Nowadays that's more like 25. Maybe we should at raise it to 25, at least if you're in college. Makes more sense to me today then then, and I would have happily seen it at 25 then.
I say keep it at 18.
sue, give me one good reason.
Deb....I've never considered raising it to 25.
I still say people ought to know what it's like to be taxed and to actually PAY taxes and contribute to society for the right to vote .
z - I am pretty sure that there are plenty of voters between 18 and 90 that don't know what they are doing either.
Hmm. I'm not sure if this thing has died yet, but, I am for -lowering- the age to 16.
.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071212191621AAilLch
.
Pretty much explains my opinion on this.
.
Note: Apparantly, the question is asked by a -freshman- in high school [14/15/16 year-old].
.
"A tip of my hat and a wag of my finger all at once."
.
Kiki
I think the voting age should be raised back to 21 like it was before 1971. However there should be a stipulation to that change. If someone is aged 17 to 20 & they enlist into the Armed Forces they should be allowed to vote as they're serving their country! But for the civilian's under 21, no. Most of them aren't up to date with politics, world politics, government, economics, and so on. Most don't really care that much and only care so far as their eye can see. There are a few wise enough young adults to vote but most like I stated are not. Most are influenced heavily by their families political leanings & by what they hear the mostly liberal socialist t.v. says. Unfortunately it's this way but for those who put their lives on the line (being mostly infantry, artillery, special forces, etc.) and for those who are in the service overall they should definitely have a voice. When I was in the Army alot of 18 to 20 yr. olds cared about what was happening back on our soil. What the moronic lawmakers do affects us! So alot of us have to care. Kids who are just out of high school or are in college don't really know much about politics & are greatly deceived by their liberal far left leaning professors who are biased at the core. Ask most Obama voters what they know about Obama & most of them didn't know much about him. More knew about McCain, at least the negatives....
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