Tuesday, July 7, 2009

What makes an American?

I heard this phrase this weekend in a video at Sue's blog : "We can't be America again until we start being Americans again." That really got me thinking.......

"We can't be America again........until WE start being AMERICANS again."

What's that mean, I thought? Mr. Z is not an American but he seems to love this country more than some born in America do. What's with that? What's with...........them? What's it mean to BE AMERICAN? (NO, do NOT stop and comment now! You've just GOT to see the first video link in the red paragraph below, I KNOW you were going to comment now!!! HEH..I digress!!!..) Put aside just plain being born here like most Americans are.........there are illegals coming here every hour, or being born here every minute, who will never really be American and will always expect a hand out, and some who will grow up loving this country for its opportunities. I'm talking about being an American in your heart, no matter where you were born. I'm not talking about a technical thing here, I'm talking about a heart thing. What's the definition of American then, putting aside place of birth? Talking about place of birth...(heh).........

....Mr. Obama had a terrible time when asked by Journalist Major Garrett why it was difficult for him to say that the West won the Cold War. PLEASE watch the video and see what Barack Obama thinks (check out the derisive chuckle when questioned). His inability to admit America did a great job grieves me so much. Click HERE to see that interview with Major Garrett, and please see the comment by Lech Walesa at the end of it, too. It's so important to see Mr. Obama's mindset. Don't forget, Mr and Mrs Obama lived their lives fighting an America they felt was unfair. You all know how Mrs. Obama only felt proud when her husband got the nomination. Click HERE if you can stand to hear that again.

Doesn't loving America tie in with patriotism? And doesn't patriotism mean loving America? Some say "dissent is patriotic"...fair enough. How far does the dissent go before someone's not loving America anymore? Does denying a truth about America and the Cold War, something the whole WORLD acknowledges, go into that touchy dissent mode? Do you have to wear a flag pin to love America? OF COURSE NOT. But, what about THIS FROM OBAMA in October, 2007 about flag pins.......?? Here's a clippet from the article:

"You know, the truth is that right after 9/11, I had a pin," Obama said. "Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq War, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security, I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism." Z: "Will make this country great?" (does that bring tears to your eyes, too?)

Do you have to be pro choice to be an American? Of course not.
Must you be for lower taxes to be an American? Of course not.
Do you have to be for or against gay marriage to be an American? Of course not.
Must you believe in God to be an American? Of course not..........SO.......

What's the thread that joins Conservatives and Liberals in their love of America?

Must you believe in stricter border control to love America? Absolutely.
Should you believe in one national, official language to love America? Yes.
Do you have to believe in excellent defense to love America? Yes.

We take CARE of things we love, right?


I'd been thinking about this subject for a while and then my very dear friend Heidianne emailed me that a July 4th guest said this to her..."....it's time we in America realize we have much more to be ashamed if then to be proud of." This got her hopping mad, and me, too. "much more to be ashamed of"? He is AMERICAN, but remember that saying..."We can't be America again until we start being Americans again." If all the Americans in this country felt the way that guy felt, would we EVER BE THE AMERICA WE KNOW AND LOVE AGAIN?

When doing a tally of goods vs bads about America, doesn't EVERYONE's list of goods outweigh the bads? IF not, WHY not? It's a choice, in my opinion. Those who really LOVE AMERICA will give her a break, understand her shortcomings, try to make her even better, and have a far longer list of goods. HOW CAN THEY NOT? Plus, America's done SO MUCH GOOD for her own people and around the world...this is not a point that's up for grabs, IS IT??

I honestly didn't mean this piece to be about Obama and America. I saw the Major Garrett interview tonight and it got me thinking ....but let's not argue the Obamas here, I'm really not saying I don't think they love America, but their examples fit this piece so well. Let's talk about the subject of LOVING AMERICA.

Also.....Can you fight for this country and not love America?

Tell me......what's with this LOVING AMERICA thing? You have any input? I'd love to hear it.



z

57 comments:

Z said...

If you didn't watch the VIDEO in the red paragraph, the first one, go back and watch it. you really must see what was said.
Thanks..xx

Jen aka Pinky said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jen aka Pinky said...

Heh. I came here then turned right around when I read your comment.
;-)

*sigh*
Obama just refuses to even state the facts for fear that he might offend someone in the international community. He's so worried about our reputation as ugly Americans. gag.

What makes an American?
I think that those who aspire for a better life appreciate the freedoms that we enjoy in this country. It seems to me that the most grateful Americans are those who understand the price of freedom.

Anonymous said...

I think it's a matter of the heart, loving America. It's knowing that in this land, we the people are our own rulers with the freedom to succeed or fail and take our own risks.

When we're children, we have dreams about what we want to be someday, and whether we achieve that dream, is up to us to try and attain it.

It's knowing our country was designed so that freedom is the guiding light. We have so much to be proud of and grateful for.

It's also true that this is a country that is bountiful with natural resources, and fertile land. We had from the beginning everything we needed to succeed. And with hard work we did just that.

When we have won wars, we have not abused our victories. Countries we have fought and defeated remained free from our domain, and we even helped to restore them.

If today, some of us choose to disdain America, it's because they take our freedom for granted, and cannot imagine it being taken away.
But, it can be.

We are the stewards who are supposed to protect this precious gift called America, and if she slips from our grasp, we have only ourselves to blame.

It's hard to put into words a feeling that runs so deep.

I guess if put simply, I love that we are the home of the free and the brave. I love America.

Pris

beamish said...

Obama always blunders when he gets to speaking on matters outside his range of expertise, which entails loading a staple gun and not much else.

Nickie Goomba said...

Pris, we are the stewards. That is the realization that is missing from the populace. Many on the Left believe it's their duty to destroy this country.

Z said...

Jen, glad you watched the video..sad, isn't it.

I'm not sure if it's he's afraid of our reputation or he really believes what he's saying. I hope he knows his history better on other subjects.

Pris, I'm glad you agree..HEART is so much, isn't it. There are those who come here with a heart for America, who'd choose to see the good in her no matter what..there are those BORN here who somehow just can't allow themselves to see the good in her; this is my biggest quandary; that Americans born here can actually CHOOSE to belittle and mischaracterize and look for things to insult is surprising and difficult to understand.

Z said...

BEAMISH!!! :-)

Hey, GOOMBA! You're right...it feels like that, doesn't it.
But we all also know Dems who do love America and just have another vision. The thing is, the other vision, maybe different than a conservative's, used to still have America's good at heart..these days the far leftwingers don't seem to care about that.

DaBlade said...

Have you ever listened to (or sang) The Star-Spangled Banner and got a lump in your throat? Have you ever not? Have you ever handled the flag with deference, or been upset when you noticed that it was not treated with respect by others? Patriotism requires that emotional tie to our past and our love of freedom and liberty for future generations. That's why we conservatives are hopping mad at the erosions of these.

A very thought-provoking post Z. Obama's attitude in the clip is not surprising, and is consistant with every other of his utterances.

I believe it was Michael Jackson who once sang, "Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

heidianne jackson said...

great, thought provoking post, z. in my opinion being an american boils down to a few salient things.

an american is an individual first and a member of the nation second. remember the old saying "for god, family and country"? there is a reason it is listed in that order.

god is always first. without him nothing is possible to be sustained - oh sure you may have some successes here an there, but ultimately you'll never have the peace of his love if you don't acknowledge that it is only with the love of god that you can love your family (and ultimately others as well) as they need to be loved. without god at the helm, you cannot fully take care of your family.

onto family. if we truly take care of our families - in ALL regards - the country will be taken care of as well. in all regards.

to take care of our families in all regards, we - as individuals - must provide sustenance (physical and spiritual), shelter and personal protection. we must also provide elected officials who understand and adhere to the constitution (state & federal) and the laws of the land. we must [also] teach our children the importance of SELF sacrifice - be it for military or community service.

if we follow this method - as did our founders and those who immediately followed - we will have a country full of those who are americans. we will have a country full of people who, like me, cry when the star spangled banner is played - every time. who ALWAYS thank the men and women whom they see who have given of themselves to serve others - be it military service or other service.

instead, what we have now, is a country full of people who think that they should be part of a collective first and individuals later. who believe that be taking care of the collective - by pandering and even outright bribery (affirmative action, immigration "reform" amnesty, restitution for slavery, etc., etc., ad nauseum) - that the individual is taken care of. a country full of people who believe that because americans have always been individuals first that we are bad.

z, i don't believe obama loves this country. hell, i don't even believe he loves anyone or anything other than himself. he, in order to get where he is today, has practiced "for power, more power and adoration". his brand of politics and theft can do nothing to help america NOR americans.

it is only by removing he and his ilk from the national landscape that we have any hope of restoring this once great nation. however, in order to do that, we must educate our young (and re-educate our old) on the precepts and FACTS about our country, ne the world, and the history thereof.

it is only by getting back to pride in one's OWN accomplishments that we can restore faith in one's country. if those who work to better themselves are cast as evil - by the educators, by the congress, even by the president and his administration - why on earth would any child want to pursue excellence?

i am damn proud of what this country has accomplished. however, i never forget that what has been accomplished by this country has actually been accomplished by individuals. individuals who strove always to do the best they could and always put others above themselves.

god, family, country. i love them all - everyday. maybe not always in the proper order, but i strive to always keep those at the forefront of my brain AND my heart.

oh, and i feel every word uttered by this president intended denigrate us here, there and everywhere - as if it were a cut on my heart. did you notice that obama said we don't need to diminish others in order to recognize our part in things? i cannot help but wonder why he feels the need to diminish our accomplishments in order to make others feel good.

sorry to be so long-winded, z. hope this post isn't too rambling...

Right Is Right said...

Great post Z... as for "What makes an American?"
We do, people like you and me and the others that post right here.

RaDena said...

Okay, I didn't watch the video and didn't go to any link because I have a doctor's appointment. But I will say "Hi" and I will get back to this post sometime today and read it thoroughly and watch the video and go to the links because it truly does interest me. You got my interest so kudos for a great job even though I haven't been here long enough to do the post justice.

Later! :)

Always On Watch said...

I posted the video and my very short commentary over at Infidel Bloggers Alliance.

Pushed for time, or I'd say more.

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

I still believe Teddy Roosevelt said it first and best:

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

BZ

Chuck said...

Just more apology from Obama on America's agression around the world.

The reality is that many people in Eastern Europe did help with the downfall of the Soviet Union. They did it though because we showed them hope for a better life. What Obama cannot bring himself to say is that while the poeple of the region brought about change, the members of the government including the current memebers did not.

As far as what it takes to be an American. I don't think it's a matter of birth. Many immigrants are much more patriotic than some people born here. This is where I draw the line between legal and illegal immigrants and their love of the country. Some say that illegals love the US and have worked her, some for decades, and therefore deserve citizenship. This canot be true if they didn't have the basic respect to become a US citizen.

Ducky's here said...

What's wrong with loving America? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

What's wrong with being a robot who fetishises it into a cult that loses touch with history and reality in general? Plenty.

It's like our greatest film director said in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence", "When the myth outgrows the truth, print the myth".
Well I really love John Ford and the track of his films from "Stagecoach' on which made it a point to make us aware of questioning and always investigating what is myth and what is truth.

I'm not shutting down my mind or my curiosity about the world to satisfy some template from the far right.

christian soldier said...

m ho-M.Hussein Obama is making us evil tsxpaying
amereeeeekans PAY:she has LOTS of attendants....thus --uses LOTS of our $$$$:
http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2009/07/while-im-working-two-shifts-eating.html
bho does not love the U.S. ...
Out of the heart the mouth speaks ---read that somewhere! KJV
C-CS

Ducky's here said...

When we have won wars, we have not abused our victories. Countries we have fought and defeated remained free from our domain, and we even helped to restore them.

---------------------------

Yeah, like the Philippines. Or Germany at the end of WW I.

Do right wingers have any grasp of history or are they completely loaded down with this sort of silliness?

Mustang said...

Mr. Obama is not the least bit concerned about historic accuracy; he pursues a different agenda, and it has nothing to do with supporting and defending the United States Constitution, the American people, or American interests. Yes, I will admit that he is a smart man, but he isn’t the first well-educated idiot to stand behind a podium.

I do think dissent can manifest itself through principled patriotism. I absolutely disagreed with Mohammed Ali (aka Cassius Clay) when he refused to be drafted into the military. But since he maintained his principles in accepting the consequence of his actions, he earned my respect. Contrast that with others, who ‘ran away’ to Canada. Many Americans serve their country at great personal risk even in spite of the fact that they deplore the act of war, or its necessity. They realize that someone has to step up. In contrast, others are happy to let someone else take the risks. In my view, they are parasites … and yellow.

No one on the planet disagrees with neo-communist Howard Zinn than I do. But he did fight for his country during World War II and even though he has become one of this country’s most vocal bashers, he at least earned the right to dissent. We can’t say that about 99.9% of the American haters today.

Individuals who choose to revise our history in order to justify their contention that America is bad, or the argument that we ought to be ashamed of our past, are just simply full of crap. No country is perfect … but as I indicated in “Arrogant Americans,” the American people have done much more good in the world than they have bad. We ought to wonder about people who only see the bad. We ought to wonder why they continue to live here if they despise their country so much. My conclusion is that they remain here to tear her down, and judging from the comments left here and at other blogs by an unnamed source, it is a valid conclusion. And there is an important distinction to be made here: we should regard people who work to improve our country as an example of positive dissent; those who have nothing more to offer than finding fault as an example of America-bashing with no useful purpose. Personally, I think anyone who refuses to defend their country (and by extension, their own families and communities), does not deserve the liberty paid for at such a high price by others.

Z said...

Ducky, you'll have to talk to Mr. Z about Germany......he says he doesn't know what you're talking about after WWI; and they actually LEARN HISTORY in Germany, their leftists still love Germany enough to teach them facts over lesbian studies.

Mustang, you say "We ought to wonder about people who only see the bad."

THAT is EXACTLY the point I tried to make in my rambling post; I just could NOT get my thoughts together and actually spent more time tweaking this one than most others. It's difficult because of so many variables...BUT that phrase you used is EXACTLY the point. Thanks so much. Yes, you have to WONDER.

Ducky's here said...

Interesting that you bring up Vietnam, mustang, just after the death of McNamara.

I don't know what more he had to do to convince us that Vietnam was a very serious mistake and nothing more than a poorly calculated intrusion into a civil war. One that ultimately caused incredible death and suffering and was a major contributor to the conditions which allowed the Cambodian genocide.

Like I say, WW II and it gets REAL thin after that and even then we had the lowest per capita casualty rate of the major participants.

Ducky's here said...

Yeah z, we helped rebuild Wiemar.

Please stop.

Ducky's here said...

"...The armies of those I love engirth me, and I engirth them;
They will not let me off till I go with them, respond to them,
And discorrupt them, and charge them full with the charge of the Soul."
-- Walt Whitman (GREAT American)

Anonymous said...

That's a good question, Z. I think you can strongly believe in the idea of America without being American. I think the ideal of America which is most powerful is that contained in the Declaration of Independence. That is what individuals look for in America, and it may be conspicuously absent today in the likes of BO and MO to name of couple of them. What BO said in that comment isn't really surprising since that attitude is something learned at places like Harvard. Funny that people go to Harvard to be "educated" in the ideals of Marxism and be taught about the benefits of socialism while at the same time listening to and absorbing ideas that denigrate America, individualism and capitalism.

Waylon

Z said...

Ducky, there was nothing to be rebuilt after WWI...
Weimar was AFTER WWI.

If anybody helped Germany, it was the Americans in that the impact of the Treaty of Versailles was less negative than if the Brits and France had had their way.

Ducky..thanks for proving my point.
Some people who say they love America work hard to emphasize the good..others can't WAIT to remind of any possible negative thing that could have happened to ANOTHER COUNTRY.

Congratulations, Ducky...your leftwinger ilk has created a country whose kids have no real understanding of the constitution and who demean and belittle with no possible thought given to..."Then what.. when you've run her into the ground and adapted Socialist methodologies which have never worked...THEN WHAT?"
I know...you'll just keep up the banter.

Mustang, Howard Zinn's military experience can't hold up against his poisoning most of America.

Z said...

Waylon..that's another of my points in the piece. You're absolutely right.
MANY people who are not American love and appreciate this country so much.
it's why so many Eastern Europeans I know can't bring themselves to vote for Leftwingers anymore...they escaped the socialism of THERE for the land of the FREE here... and they're seeing that slipping.
And that's been taught out of our kids. Thanks for coming by; please chime in on this any time, I appreciate hearing from non Americans so much.

RaDena said...

Ducky may have a different perspective on Vietnam if he had actually been in that war. I know many who were and they don't agree with him.

Z, I won't be listening to Michelle's speech again. UGH! But I did watch the video and Obama is a total embarrassment. What an American! GADS!

This is a very thought provoking post and I cannot sing the Star Spangled Banner without tearing up. It has nothing to do with
"shutting down my mind to the world" as Ducky implies we conservatives are doing. I've been out in that world, in other countries long enough to know enough to be thankful for having been born in America. Each time I've walked off the plane onto American soil I've actually kissed the ground in gratitude. We Americans have so much and those who are not extremely grateful to those who have fought to keep us free are nothing more than ingrates.

A real American is someone who takes the time and trouble to understand history, to know that we haven't always been right, to understand our mistakes of the past and to work at repairing them while building on the good things about America, and there is a lot more "good" than "bad". If more Americans realized that we wouldn't have the mess we have today.

Excellent post, Z.

The Hermit said...

I have a 1950's view of what makes an American. I'm afraid I'm definitely out of step with the times.

Z said...

Thanks you, RaDena, that means a lot to me and ALL my commenters (well, MOST)!

I lived in Munich and Paris for years at a time, and would go there TODAY to live if I could. (some may not like hearing that but it's true and don't knock it till you've tried it, as they say)

Someone wisely asked, upon my having said that.."YOu say that, but but you knew you could come back any time...right?"

I got to thinking. The thought of not coming back to my wonderful America any time I wanted to....visiting or for good, would have kept me IN AMERICA. Permanently. Matter of fact, one of the only few anxiety attacks I've had in my life was in our Paris apartment soon after 9/11 had happened, wailing at poor Mr Z before he took off to his office, saying "But, what if I can NEVER return? Who KNOWS how bad this could get...? I WANT TO GO HOME!" (I haven't ever admitted that to a soul, come to think of it!)(and who DID know how far the Muslims would go...still might go, as a matter of face?)

SHe was right.
You should have seen ME sniveling at the ARmistice Day parade in Paris one hot morning....they played The Star Spangled Banner and there I was amongst all those French people, BAWLING .I said to Mr Z "I don't give a dayum WHAT they think!" and kept laughing and crying. ...
Actually, I felt they envied me my adoration of my country.

Z said...

Hermit: TELL US. I'd like to hear that because I have a feeling I agree with you.

Ducky's here said...

Congratulations, Ducky...your leftwinger ilk has created a country whose kids have no real understanding of the constitution

--------------------

See that's what it always comes down to. Some reflexive talk about "freedom" and some talk about "understanding the constitution".

Now my example of a right winger "understanding the constitution" would be a poster who goes off about "letters of marque" as stated in the constitution in reference to the proposals to limit executive pay in companies which were part of TARP or Federal bankruptcy proceedings.
Right wingers pull this kind of thing a lot. They grab some obscure term and figure that by using it they are demonstrating in depth knowledge. In this case it was a total misapplication since letters of marque only refer to certain criminal offenses but right wingers just keep on pushing.

They are the real Americans and they are the ones who have the only "true" understanding of the Constitution despite a longstanding debate.
And in that hubris they demand complete concession to their unsubstantiated point of view and bring substantial doubt that they have any concept of a freedom that goes beyond their own parochial biases.

What's amusing now is watching them try to hold onto their crazy ideas of American economic "freedom" as our status as the one economy standing after WW II has been bargained away by the Reagan fiasco which has now come home to roost in its fullness.

Culturist John said...

I wonder if Michelle Obama has reached the third time she's been proud of this country?

Ducky, we did wonderful things for the Phillipines. And, that is especially true in light of what we could have done.

Being an American means, partially, considering what your actions do to it. If you are pro-illegal immigration because a baby might be left behind or because it lowers your payroll costs, you are not puting American concerns in the equation.

Being American means asking yourself, "What is good for America." On that note, being proud of America, MR. OBAMA, does not diminish other nation's pride. But if it did, you are our President.

GOOoooOOO TEAM !!!

Z said...

Great John..."Being American means asking yourself, "What is good for America."

Ducky...OH, for the days of Reagan and prosperity....no matter HOW YOU want to spin it.

Mustang said...

Ducky, my principle issue with you is your intellectual dishonesty. In the first place, I never once mentioned Vietnam. I mentioned Cassius Clay, a dissenter of U. S. foreign policy. I also think that you are representative of most leftists in that you knowingly and willfully lump together issues of national policy with the selfless acts of Americans serving their country in uniform. You act as if it is Private Jones’ fault that the national leadership declared war on whomever. You do this often with snide comments about people who serve in the military; and in my view, you are not only wrong-headed, but also stupid.

But since you brought up the Vietnam War, why don’t we summarize a few facts—for the record.

By supporting French policies in Indochina and ignoring Ho Chi Minh’s request for U. S. recognition, Harry Truman (D) first set into motion the events that would later result in the employment of U. S. forces in Vietnam.

Vietnam was partitioned because of the so-called Truman Doctrine; it set into motion the “civil war” between north and south. I did mention that Truman was a democrat, right?

By the time Eisenhower took office, Israel was already a recognized state and Ike decided to focus his attention on the Middle East. He didn’t do such a good job, in my opinion. However, I’m sure Ike was as happy as he could possibly be when the remnants of the Vichy French under Charles De Gaulle were defeated in Vietnam.

John F. Kennedy (D) began sending US military personnel to Vietnam as part of his military advisory scheme. I think Kennedy was attempting to manage the problem in Vietnam with the smallest possible footprint. Let’s acknowledge, however, that John Kennedy authorized the assassination of South Vietnam president Ngo Din Diem. Did I mention that Kennedy was a Democrat?

Lyndon B. Johnson (Democrat) deliberately contrived the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and a Democratic congress gave Johnson war-powers authority to employ U. S. forces to Vietnam. At the same time Johnson vowed to “bomb them back into the stone age,” he also implemented his so-called Great Society; we still have not recovered.

Robert McNamara (Democrat) continually lied/misled the Democratic Congress about Vietnam, conspiring with Henry Cabot Lodge, Maxwell Taylor, and Graham Martin to misinform the American people about the probability of military success against the North Vietnamese. McNamara sent Westmoreland to command the Vietnam War, the least capable of the country’s senior officers.

Richard Nixon (R) had the right idea about winning in Vietnam, but he had some serious personality issues exacerbated by a hostile Democratic Congress, and pissed off citizens at home, led by liars such as John Kerry (Democrat). In a book published not long ago, North Vietnam’s military commander stated that the Americans had ‘won the war,’ when they suddenly gave up. No one was more surprised than Vo Nguyen Giap.

I won't mention Jimmy Carter (Democrat); I know you must be embarrassed about that.

So do us all a favor and don’t continue bullshitting people about how right-wingers have caused all of America’s problems. And while we’re on the topic of left versus right, take a look at what your idiotic President Obama (D) is doing to our role in global leadership. Do you think the world will be a better, safer place in four years? Not likely … well, unless you happen to be a Democrat or believe in fairy tales.

WomanHonorThyself said...

"We can't be America again until we start being Americans again." ..so so true my friend!

cube said...

Has America ever had a president who hated everything she stood for? I think BO's administration is a precedent.

Ducky's here said...

You act as if it is Private Jones’ fault that the national leadership declared war on whomever.

----------------------

NONSENSE. I believe it is the responsibility of the American people to determine the purpose of the mission and to react sensibly and calmly to assessing a threat.

What we have however is the FAR RIGHT squelching any criticism of the MISSION as a criticism of the troops.

There is also the issue of many on the far right projecting themselves as the arbiters of just what "freedom" means as if they had never taken a moment to study a little philosophy or distill just what a complicated topic it is and also to project themselves as the arbiters of what the Constitution means.

They are also completely in denial about the contributions of left movements to the development of the country. It isn't the left which is primarily culpable to charges of extreme blind parochialism.

It gets worse when the right tips its hand and lets you know they have the rules on just who and what constitute a Christian.


As an aside, do you agree that Ike caved to the French and instituted terror bombings (WHAT, AMERICA USING TERRORIST TACTICS?) in South Viet Nam.

Ducky's here said...

So do us all a favor and don’t continue bullshitting people about how right-wingers have caused all of America’s problems.

---------------------------

I haven't said they are responsible for all problems. I will say that they seem incapable of admitting their failures. The current financial mess is an example.

The right is loath to admit how we got into this (CRA and A.C.O.R.N? Is the right delirious?) and far more concerned about finding something on the left to blame. The right has a LOT to answer for.

Ducky's here said...

Also by talking about us "winning" in Vietnam you necessarily take the position that we should chose the winning side in a civil war.

This must be some residue of resentment from Europe not joining Lee's army in an invasion of the North

FJ said...

They (the Left) are international socialists... the operative word being INTERNATIONAL. In order to adhere to their ideology you MUST SACRIFICE THE US NATIONAL INTEREST, by definition. It's not that they hate AMERICA, its that they hate ALL NATIONALISM. They are "gobalists"... "one-worlders"... and they are sympathetic to all like minded causes EXCEPT admitting that the best way to achieve their goal would be to fuel US/ Wilsonian imperialism... ;-)

Ducky's here said...

Well yes, Farmer, but that's a pretty long term view.

Right now we have to deal with the battle over natural resources and questions of distribution that are completely germane to internal American affairs.

I often see the right as believers that they have a biblical right to just consume in any way they see fit, with no concept of "tomorrow". See their hysterical rejection of any consideration of climate issues other than "drill and drive, baby".

Z said...

"It gets worse when the right tips its hand and lets you know they have the rules on just who and what constitute a Christian."
Scripture informs, not any Christian you've ever heard of, Ducky.

"Also by talking about us "winning" in Vietnam you necessarily take the position that we should chose the winning side in a civil war."

Ya, and we should have sided against the Jews in WWII, also, because we were butting in, right, Ducky?

Z said...

Ducky, do you KNOW how much oil ALASKA ALONE has?

Thanks.

Ducky's here said...

"Also by talking about us "winning" in Vietnam you necessarily take the position that we should chose the winning side in a civil war."

Ya, and we should have sided against the Jews in WWII, also, because we were butting in, right, Ducky?

----------------------------

You have apparently gone over the high side again, z.

But I would say that your comment does represent the obscurant absolute good/evil dichotomy of the right.

Brooke said...

An American wants the best for his offspring, better than he had, and the opportunity to work hard to make that happen without oppressive gov't, ect.

Obama ain't that. He's an elitist.

Ducky's here said...

Obama doesn't want the best for his kids?

You could sure fool me.

HoosierArmyMom said...

"Richard Nixon (R) had the right idea about winning in Vietnam, but he had some serious personality issues exacerbated by a hostile Democratic Congress, and pissed off citizens at home, led by liars such as John Kerry (Democrat). In a book published not long ago, North Vietnam’s military commander stated that the Americans had ‘won the war,’ when they suddenly gave up. No one was more surprised than Vo Nguyen Giap.

In support of this segment of Mustang's statement... your hero "Chairman O's" good buddies Ayres and Dohrn did their part to help the North Vietnamese.

*Part 4, “Extent of Subversion in the new Left, pp. 575, 576.

From the 94th Congress, 1st Session – Committee Print

THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND

January 1975

From Page 141


Vietnamese Delegations Experienced in Mass Organization and
Guerrilla Warfare (from Bernadine Dohrn’s notes)

The Vietnamese delegations were composed of hand-picked cadres, experienced in mass organization and guerrilla warfare, and included officer of the Vietcong forces.*
The Vietnamese were emphatic from the beginning that the struggle in Southeast Asia was of paramount importance and it was essential for the US radicals to generate concrete action in order to hasten a political victory of their side.

Unless you were there (which we know you weren't), speaking as though you were there makes you sound stupid. Our quick exit is what left innocent people wide open for the genocide that occurred with the COMMUNIST Khimir Rouge and Viet Cong!

You arguing what went on in Viet Nam with Mustang is like the village idiot arguing with a Rhodes Scholar!!!

Culturist John said...

I'm going to up my ante. If you are for immigration on the grounds of "human rights" you are not a good American. To be a good American you must ask "what is good for America?" That is the first question. If "human rights" coincide with America's benefit, that is okay. But we do not sacrifice ourselves for the world. We are America, we're not the world.

Just to anticipate, our fate is tied in with the West. So stopping Hitler was in our interest. Just like you'd jump in a river to save your Dad. But jumping into a dangerous river to save a stranger? An enemy?

To prioritize "human rights" is to prioritize an abstraction. If we have a situation where we must choose one or the other, working for "human rights" becomes un-American. And when it comes time for foreign aid, this is often the case.

Lastly, this does not mean we have a license for imperialism. Violating our values is not good for America.

www.culturism.us

FJ said...

I often see the right as believers that they have a biblical right to just consume in any way they see fit, with no concept of "tomorrow". See their hysterical rejection of any consideration of climate issues other than "drill and drive, baby".

The perspective isn't biblical, it's scientific. It's derived from the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. E (In) = E (out)

shoprat said...

A true American values personal responsibility and individual rights and will defend the nation with their life.

Law and Order Teacher said...

While I respect the rights of dissent, I hardly subcribe to the theory that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

Dissent while, necessary is hardly a high form of patriotism, it is easy to dissent. Words are worthless if not backed by action.

To stand on the sidelines and kibbitz is great, but hardly takes a lot of courage. So someone yells at you and calls you names in response to your dissent. That's tough. But to back your words with action and that's real courage.

If you are critical of the mission, great, but if you are critical of the mission and conflate that with the troops, your not only dishonest, you are a coward.

The Vietnam War was the grandfather of all wars for blaming the troops for the mission. I was told not to wear my uniform home to America, for fear that we would be the recipients of ridicule and maybe violence by "protesters." These were cowardly thugs and I will never forgive them.

As for those who went to Canada, I say good riddance.

As for the end of WWI, we didn't ratify the Versailles Treaty. The Weimar Republic was formed by the Germans and would have failed sooner had it not been for the Dawes Plan that bailed out the French after they demanded payment of reparations from the Germans and workers struck in the Saar factories in protest of French highhandedness. That was an American plan.

In the Philippines, the US got caught in a mess started by the Spanish prior to the SA War when the US was ceded the Philippines by them.

The US had the unenviable decision to either let the Filipinos have the island or rebuild it. The US spent millions on rebuilding the islands before giving them back in 1947/8.

I know America baaaaaad. I get it.

Joe said...

"What's wrong with being a robot who fetishises it into a cult that loses touch with history and reality in general?"

Ducky has finally described himself.

If Ducky thinks Viet Nam was nothing more than a civil war, he either does not have a grasp of history, ignores the international involvement there, or just likes to be contrary.

President BO refuses to say ANYTHING that is both truthful and positive about America because he sees himself as a victim who has risen above his victimhood to set the country straight...straight on the path to despotism.

Always On Watch said...

I'm late getting back to this thread.

But I simply must acknowledge this bit of eloquence from Mustang (to Duck):

So do us all a favor and don’t continue bullshitting people about how right-wingers have caused all of America’s problems.

You see, it is THE LEFT that wishes to foist a guilt complex upon America -- while giving leftist dictators a total pass.

Ducky's here said...

The Vietnam War was the grandfather of all wars for blaming the troops for the mission. I was told not to wear my uniform home to America, for fear that we would be the recipients of ridicule and maybe violence by "protesters." These were cowardly thugs and I will never forgive them.
-------------------------

Urban myth and you should stop propagating it.

The troops WERE RESPECTED by and large by virtually all of the general public at that time.

Now you may have an obsessive need to cast the left in the role you IMAGINE but the spitting at the airport stories have been thoroughly debunked and are simply the pure stinky cheese.

Ducky's here said...

Our quick exit is what left innocent people wide open for the genocide that occurred with the COMMUNIST Khimir Rouge and Viet Cong!

------------------------------

You must mean the North Vietnamese, Hoosier because by the time we left the Viet Cong had been killed in various operations. There was no Viet Cong.

Of course the destabilization of Cambodia and the Ol' Foggy Bottom Bombardier Kissinger had nothing to do with the subsequent carnage. We always MEAN to do the right thing and if a few million people die because of our screw-ups, well they just don't know the price of freedom, right?

So where is the seam between the right's contention that they do know wrong and your posited contention that the left thinks the right can do nothing correct?

Myself, I think you have to go back to Reagan to understand when the right went completely loony tunes and left the tracks. After all, Vietnam was a real war so Dems were in charge can't blame Republicans for it.

Ducky's here said...

In the Philippines, the US got caught in a mess started by the Spanish prior to the SA War when the US was ceded the Philippines by them.

----------------

No, the U.S. slaughtered a few hundred thousand Filipinos. We actively decided that we would expand our empire. The ceding was a conscious objective of the U.S. government.

Saying it is otherwise is a perfect example of the right's absolute inability to take accept American responsibility for rotten policy.

Z said...

Ducky, which Philippine Empire is that? "expand"? Where have we built an EMPIRE? just curious.

And of course HAM is right on Vietnam, you just won't take in any information you don't agree with.
And, yes...people get killed in a war, even innocent people who the war was started to protect from communism. Oh, that's right...it's you. If you don't mind communism, what a SILLY and deadly mistake that ol' Vietnam war WAS..good point.