OH, MY..... read THIS LINK...HOUSE OF PAIN: GOP's CLASS of '94 is the title....those darned Republicans in Congress just can't stay married! Seems that it must be something in the Republican message, right? One after the other exposed here; the world's coming apart and Yahoo's headline article this morning's on Republican infidelity.
Sure would have liked to have had a list of the Democrat infidelities...their ideology must prevent that, huh? Ya, right.
I've said for a long time that bringing families TO Washington, like lawmakers used to before transportation got so easy, might help keep those families together. Might even keep OUR FAMILY together as a country, less divided, less vitriolic, if the families' children went to the same school, if the wives from both sides of the aisle met at the PTA, soccer and ballet. Maybe the families from both sides of the aisle would have cocktail parties and barbecues again like they used to. Seems like that could help prevent our representatives from dividing THEIR homes and OURS .... wouldn't they tend to be a BIT more civil to a guy from the other side if they knew they're having dinner with the wives later? Just a thought.
I snooped around and found that Red States have a slightly higher divorce rater...some say it's because more Republicans marry......others say that they have higher standards and expectations and, when the going gets rough, they're out of there. I, personally, know far more Democrats whose marriages have split, but I live in a highly Democrat area......
Think there's any correlation of politics and marriage survival? Think my suggestion that bringing families to DC might help their family...............AND OURS?
z
60 comments:
To be fair Z, a lot of people in blue states can't legally marry. ;-)
I'm sure that personal values play a large part in keeping a marriage going. No matter how good a marriage you have, as the years pass and people change, it takes effort to keep two people together. I think people who are religious and believe in traditional gender roles work harder to keep things going than people who are not in general. ( I say this despite the fact that I am not religious.) Whether or not you can correlate party to the issue I don't know, because both parties are made up of such a wide variety of subsets.
Just yesterday, my cousin, a Democrat, said to me, "Republican politicians have more trouble with sex scandals than the Democrats."
That seems to be the new meme: saying that Republicans are less moral in marriage than Democrats.
Let's take back the clock several decades. Seems to me that the Admiral of Chappaquiddick was in the news.
Duck will be along any minute to defend Teddy.
I believe in everyone's right to do as they please. It's the American way
SHACKING around is OK in the Dem world--they subscribe to NO moral high ground...
The Rs "say " they do...They don't but they say they do...
Hubby and I have always been Conservatives and we have been married 37 years. I'm thankful.
Power, temptation, separation, all influence those men, but they should be stronger.
Have a great July 4th weekend. Hubby's band is playing at a big Independence Day celebration, so I'll be there, I'm his biggest fan.
Debbie Hamilton
Right Truth
somehow getting elected to a political office increases your libido and makes the opposite sex wear beer goggles...
I've said it before sin knows no political ideology
Off Topic, I just got a big kick out of visiting Maria's site...http://myvoiceonthewingsofchange.blogspot.com/
She's a Black woman who loves her country more than she does Obama (MUCH, much more)..excellent writer and all around good person.
She's done a post on how the honeymoon seems to be over for Obama and some Black guy with quite a blog commented
"You really hate black people , don't you.I guess those racist at those Palin Klanpaign rallies holding stuff monkies on nooses didn't bother you, hun?"
I had to laugh...yes, Maria REALLY 'hates black people',huh?
Plus, did any of YOU see "stuff monkies on nooses" at Sarah Palin campaigns?
THEN, I check out his blog only to find a Glenn Beck clip from his show saying, sadly, that it's like Americans need another attack to FINALLY wake up to terrorism and how he hopes that doesn't happen and the guy says GLENN BECK IS HOPING FOR ANOTHER ATTACK.
How do you discuss things with people like that??
The higher your moral standards the harder it is to keep them. If you have no standards at all then it becomes very easy to live up to them. The thing is that in order to be a hypocrite you have to have standards. I prefer one who believes in high standards and occasional fails to live up to them to one who has no standards at all.
Let's see. Not only Chappaquiddick but also Bill and Monica, John Edwards.
I don't know why there might be a difference between right and left on this one -- all the above guesses are reasonable -- but I've recently been reading up on the history of feminism and was reminded how wildly every kind of anti-family statistic has escalated since the 60s with the beginnings of feminism and all the other "liberation" movements. Divorce, infidelities, multiple sex partners, STDs, births to unmarried girls, abortion, the works, you name it, have all gone off the charts in the last fifty years. (I should go dig up the statistics and I will if needed). That seems more telling overall than which side of the political divide commits more of it. There's been a massive philosophical sea change that works against marriage and family for the whole society.
Faith, I just looked at Faith's Corner and see the tie-in here...thanks for that.
I recommend people read your blogs, they have some very interesting information.
re: your comment; I guess it does go to a left/right thing because the things you mention are mostly celebrated and encouraged by the left...
True, it's a leftist thing originally, but as Mary Kassian, whose books I've been reading, points out, by now these originally leftist values have so permeated the whole society nobody's immune. As a society we just don't have the mental set to fight it any more -- if our "soul mate" comes along after we're married we just go with the emotional or lustful flow because there are no more societal or really strong moral barriers. Against anything we feel like doing. According to Mary Kassian, the younger generation doesn't even understand why there ever was a feminist movement it's all built into life these days. I'll have to get some of that quoted at the blog soon.
It would be interesting to find out if for some reason people on the right are more susceptible but I doubt it. I think the idea that more on the right actually marry, as you suggested, might be the real explanation.
Oh, thanks for recommending my blogs! They are pretty lonely enterprises most of the time.
Faith, Oh, I heartily agree...young people LITERALLY don't know that you don't tell your stepmother how you and your boyfriend of 3 months have decided to have a child and you're SURE he'll marry you if all goes well..
AND...
I had a 30 something walk into my bible study core group halfway through the homework, a member who'd only come a couple of times, and who flounced in after suddenly reappearing saying "I'm PREGNANT"
Not married, of course.
I realized that both these women have NO IDEA THAT'S NOT WHAT THE OPTIMAL WAY IS FOR THEM OR FOR SOCIETY OR THEIR CHILD!! to say nothing of SHAME we'd all have felt 25 years ago...something that DID keep most of us honorable and richer-living, in my opinion.
I couldn't agree with you more.
You'll laugh at this:
After this young woman had announced she's pregnant and sat down (some didn't hear her, I found out later), I just couldn't bring myself to say WELL CONGRATULATIONS! so I smiled and said WE'RE SO GLAD TO SEE YOU BACK! ....then I thought I'd better move on...we were on No. 8 of the homework questions; I SWEAR, #8 asked "What are the two sins God most frowns upon in this section?" We studied Hebrews..
SEXUAL IMMORALITY was one of the answers!! I thought "OH, MAN, NOW WHAT?" I looked at another member and her eyes were wide as PLATES with panic 'you going to ASK this?' was the clear message in her eyes!... but, I just READ IT...what could I do? The class is about the group, I can't protect one girl who should hear the truth anyway!
So, I asked the question and I called on the wide-eyed one! She said "...unbelief and SEXUAL IMMORALITY!" I cringed and so did the reader!
Suddenly, the old 80 yr old next to me says "Z, can you ask her for the answer again? I didn't HEAR HER!"
she repeated "sexual immorality"
AGAIN, the old lady said "WHAT?"
Another member (who hadn't heard the announcement, come to find out!), sort of jokingly loud and decisively said, "SEXUAL IMMORALITY"
I felt I was in a Bible Study Fellini Movie! Later, we roared with laughter at the absurdity of it.
The pregnant girl didn't flinch. To her that is NOT sexual immorality.......Faith, you are SO right.
Faith, they shouldn't be lonely, you write so well and are so intelligent.
I know Christian Soldier would like to read your work...shoprat, Always, and many others.
visit ... they'll visit back; everybody will profit.
Makes you chuckle doesn't it Z! Or maybe upchuck. I certainly do not condone what Sanford has done, but it seems that Democrats are not even expected to act morally, but Republicans are, & therefore when an R falls it's news, but when a D does, it's Business as Usual.
Funny that Democrats would point their fingers at the Republicans when they are the ones who are trying to destroy the sanctity of marriage and traditional values.
It took Democrats 88 years to get on board with Republican calls to defend civil rights for black people. In that light, nearly 20 years to witchhunt revenge for Bill Clinton speaks to slow-wittedness, not a moral awakening.
What the Clintons did with their marriage is no business of mine.
Bill Clinton was impeached on charges of criminal perjury and obstruction of justice, not marital infidelity.
Prosecute crimes, not sins.
I've gotta say I AM shocked that anyone attending a Bible study could so blithely announce her illegit pregnancy like that. Things are even worse than I thought.
But of course you had to get it across to her somehow if studying the Bible means anything at all. And of course the Lord orchestrated things nicely for that purpose. He has a way of doing that.
Hear hear.
Running brothels from house basements, and bribery and oral sex in the whitehouse, are just chump change when it compares to a Republican leaving a marriage partner.
How pathetic.
Marriage was invented to take care of the children, to provide for them.
It was not meant to be something to be thrown about for political points.
A shame some people don't think of the children first.
Know how many child killings and disappearances we hear of , seems like of parents who aren't married, or it is mom's boyfriend? Or mom's boyfriend's , friend's cousin who stole the child.
Just a string of casual liasons .
Well, I have been hitched to the same person for 32 years.
There are lots of us out here, but no one bothers to talk about the good stuff.
I am sorry to see Sarah Palin resign as governor of Alaska, but maybe she is sick of seeing her beloved baby being made mockery of by the tolerant left wing of this country.
WVDOTTR
I think there is a correlation between politics and marital problems. Not anything to do with which party you are in, but the higher up the politicians go, the more they seem to wander.
VWDOTTR, congratulations and I'm so glad there are marriages like yours out there still, but I really do think that the moral climate has eroded so completely by now that I have to wonder how durable such oldfashioned marriages are any more really. IF somehow a temptation against your marriage came along that was really designed for your personal vulnerabilities, whatever they are and we all have them, how far could you hold off against it? I don't think we really know until we are tested, and unfortunately the general social atmosphere is so permissive the tests we face aren't terribly hard these days. I don't know if you or anybody could answer that for sure of course, I'm just thinking to myself and wondering. If your husband got promoted to a government position I bet you'd both find out very soon just how tempting temptation can be.
Many of the "Founding Fathers" of America had their own marital infidelities and mistresses. Do we discount their ideas over their moral failings? How does that work?
Thomas Jefferson was a champion of religious freedom, but since he knocked up one of his slaves maybe religious freedom is wrong.
I like many of the political positions presented by Mark Sanford. My view of those positions does not change on account of Sanford's personal indiscretions.
I think Sanford should be investigated and prosecuted for ethics violations if he used his office and a state vehicle for his personal business, no matter what that personal business was.
As for his marriage, that's between him and his wife. She seems rather decided on how that's going to work out, and Sanford himself does too.
As for the fate of his governorship, that's for South Carolinians to decide.
Wake me up when I can pro or con Sanford at the ballot box in a Presidential primary.
"I snooped around and found that Red States have a slightly higher divorce rater...some say it's because more Republicans marry...."
I find that surprising, it must be because more republicans than leftists get married. After all leftists don't really value marriage as anything important at all.
First update from Washington DC.
Okay we're in a hotel on the Potomac overlooking Reagan Airport with a close-up view of the Pentagon. You Californians may not appreciate this much as I do, but the weather is BEAUTIFUL! It's 70 and breezy, and the sun's out. At home in Jacksonville it's 94 and HUMID! So I've contacted some of the others in the march and it looks like there will be over 5-8 thousand showing up. With good weather we could get twice that many. I'm PUMPED!
Hi David! Ya, makes me chuckle, but only after weeping for our country!
Leticia...GOOD POINT! Except the leftwingers don't agree with traditional values or the sanctity of marriage; this is nothing new; they put this in plan years ago in our schools. Worked like a charm.
Faith; that's what all of us thought "God made that wonderful old lady suddenly, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE GROUP THAT WAS ALMOST 8 MONTHS OLD BY THEN, not hear the answer TWICE!?
Ya, a REAL God thing.
Imagine at a bible study in which I've never MET finer women EVER? I mean, do you know in almost 7 years, I have not heard ONE WORD OF GOSSIP from amongst the 200 women I know, some of them fairly intimately? NOT ONE WORD. And yes, one normally doesn't brag about immorality there! we were STUNNED! Of course, one year, before I joined, I understand the core group was praying on behalf of a member for her daughter to conceive...the daughter badly wanted a child...only to find that the daughter was single. From then on, they asked us leaders to get the facts before the prayer chain goes to the other members!!! I laugh every time I think of that one!
Sue...I think you're right...but I do feel that far leftwinger secularists are more behind gay marriage and abortion than most rightwingers...in my humble opinion that's hand in glove with a kind of infidelity mentality.
I would never say this as a blanket statement ... any more than I'd suggest ALL REPUBLICANS are anti abortion, for example.
Beamish: Prosecute crimes, not sins..i agree. And I think your statements about Sanford, someone I really ADMIRED, are excellent. I'm with you on every single one of them. thanks.
BZ...not only won't he be quiet and dignified, he keeps quoting from the scriptures, which is making me grate my teeth.
Boy, talk about grating teeth..>Ducky must be away, he'd have had a time with this post!
Elbro...I think you're probably right, but I still maintain that some of the far leftwinger tenets are less traditional and moral than others'.
WVD: a 32 year successful marriage is a great thing, congrats!
ANd ya...WHAT IS WITH PALIN? Imagine the talk shows tonight? OY! Some libs are calling it political suicide; I mean, how do you run for president when you desert the post you hold with pretty much no explanation? Not good.
\
MK...exactly the point, apparently.
Thanks for the terrific input here...it's really very interesting to read your opinions...thanks so much
JINGOIST! FAAAANTASTIC! (our weather exactly, by the way, only a tad more humidity than normal for LA, low but not AS low as usual)
THANKS FOR CHECKING IN. I told Mr. Z "blogging doesn't get better than this....great conversation, then Morgan gives us a report on the atmosphere for the DC Tea Party tomorrow...." Thanks, Jingo!!
I'm PUMPED to hear more..
have a marvelous time, you and nanette! xxx
AOW quoted a cousin: "Republican politicians have more trouble with sex scandals than the Democrats..."
Democrats practice open season sex, so where's the scandal? Including what Chuck said ...
The greatest cause of marriage break-ups is not politics, but selfishness.
When each party in a marriage takes the attitude to give himself or herself 100% to the other expecting nothing in return, then you have an unbreakable relationship.
Z,
As the old saying goes, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." When you begin believing in your invincibiltity you begin to believe you are immortal. As my dad used to say, "Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back." Wise man.
Well when did this intense interest in personal matters start? Back at the Gary Hart incident?
It was used first against Dems, became a national sport and now what goes around, comes around.
What I do notice is an unwillingness by the right to admit that the sins of the flesh are equally distributed. What's at stake here: Uncovering the "family values" crew as a bunch of hypocrites.
OOOOOhhhhh what wonderful comments here!! (Where have I been??)
As for politics & marriage/family - moving families to DC...Here's another alternative: TERM LIMITS!!! That would solve a heck of a lot more problems than just marriage/family issues.
Debbie~Enjoy your hubby's music!
Elmer~ "I've said it before sin knows no political ideology" Amen to that.
Joe~ Selfishness indeed. If you don't surrender yourself each day, yourself will eat you alive...
Faith & Z~ I LOVE the story about the Bible study quandry! Isn't God FUNNY sometimes!? What a great sense of humor & timing. If that gal didn't get the message, she just ain't listenin'! :) LOVE it!
Happy 4th Everybody!
Mustang, ya...Chuck made a good point... so do you.
Joe and L&0; ego's a BIG part of it. Some people actually buy into their celebrity and it seems they get carried away with the feeling they can do no wrong, that they'll get away with anything; bad idea.
Look at Obama's bills: anybody who'd vote for THEM and be an America politician obviously hasn't paid attention...they get noblesse oblige that seems to put themselves over the right thing to do.
Ducky..oh, gee....hypocrisy hadn't crossed anybody's mind!! (as if)
Susannah, good to have you here!
TERM LIMITS would certainly cut down on that noblesse oblige so many feel...i love the implementation of tighter, shorter term limits. Looks like it's near impossible...but, why?
At the same time the ONE is working behind the scenes to get a third term into the constitution. Which is wrong, it won't happen, but I wish they'd work in the open. We'd better get Helen Thomas yelling at Gibbs again. These people are so out of control it's getting even more scary.
By the way, that bible study thing happened exactly as you say, Susannah...the timing was HILARIOUS... A sitcom writer couldn't have written it better! You just HAD to be there, it'll go down as one of the best stories in the group, I think!
Ducky, when did this intense interest start? When the media decided to become a clone of the Enquirer, that's when.
Yes, when it decided real news was boring and not titillating enough. That's when.
And today, when our government is out of control, passing bills they don't read, grabbing power from every corner, making backroom deals the press has no interest in covering, It's all Michael Jackson, all the time.
Today, when the press is so biased as to campaign openly for "their" candidate, and ignores objective, serious reporting to cover some idiot's philandering.
It's tabloid America Ducky, and it's a great way to keep the electorate ignorant, don't you think?
Blame the decline in journalistic standards, and the professors who teach them, don't blame us.
Pris
Pris, good job but on deaf ears.
Actually, I think Ducky thinks our tabloid media stinks, too, but he'd like more and more leftist indoctrination and less and less Jackson.
My own leftist cousin found Mustang's wonderful ARROGANT AMERICAN video upsetting. It's hard to comprehend but we fought for all our rights to talk it as we feel it.
Who amongst our forefathers thought patriotism would be a thing of the past?
Yes, the press did a Michael jackson kind of job on keeping Obama's new MUSLIM ENVOY appointment out of the airwaves, too, didn't it. Lots of things happening America doesn't know about..
And would that ONE SOLDIER would be honored with the amazing spectacle Jackson will be. What a horrid indictment of our country.
What I do notice is an unwillingness by the right to admit that the sins of the flesh are equally distributed. What's at stake here: Uncovering the "family values" crew as a bunch of hypocrites.
just in case you missed it duhkkky at least one person has mentioned that sin knows no political ideology.
and yes we know that sin infects us all...Republican Democrat or in your case Communist.
duhkkky if you can find anyone here condoning Sanford or anyone else's dalliances then by all means throw the first stone
otherwise we'll just keep having to ask you about that marriage of yours
Well when did this intense interest in personal matters start? Back at the Gary Hart incident?
Gary Hart dared the media to follow him around, and well, they did.
No, this comes on because the left first convinced themselves that Bill Clinton was being impeached for the "sin" of extramarital sex rather than the crimes of perjury and obstruction of justice, and appointed themselves the Torquemadas of sex scandals.
While I appreciate the Democrat Party's efforts to remove suspected homosexuals from Washington politics I can't help but wonder if they realize the public-at-large they're trying to astonish also notices that Democrats don't have much to say about their own gay officeholders and NAMBLA parade float passengers (hi, Nancy Pelosi).
Then again, since I don't delude myself with the absurd idea that Democrats are actually capable of rational thought, it's rather easy to deduce how the simple mind of a Democrat works. "Clinton was impeached for sex so let's hunt for sex scandals" - "America's critical of the war so let's run a war protester" - "let's tax businesses out of existence to pay for unemployment programs" - "fighting wars in Islamic countries creates terrorists among people we shouldn't profile at the airport" - and so on.
If Republicans started pushing for the deployment of orbital space weapons they'd haul out Dennis Kucinich.
Democrats are rather easily led by the nose.
Ain't nothin' to it but to do it.
Elbro! Exactly right..NOBODY's been FOR Sanford's behavior.
Beamish...you start, we'll follow.
Who cares whether you are "for Sanford".
The point you miss is that you have lost the high ground and are going to be labeled hypocrites so that your "family values" noise can be stopped once and for all.
The days of the religious right questioning anyone's values are OVER. You are in the process of being completely marginalized as a political entity.
Ducky, grow up.
Only people like you say "Just because 19 mulims killed 3000 innocent Americans doesn't mean muslims are evil...but let a few Christians not be perfect and all Christians and Conservatives are marginalized."
I keep asking you why you and your leftwinger ilk are SO frightened of the Right when you are IN CHARGE NOW. You've got a kind of communist utopia now with one party in total charge....but, oh, my GOSH, you all seem to be shaking in your shoes.
Stop shaking. We're on to you. We're only in the early planning stages and the poll numbers are going in our favor, but you still have a while to ruin this country before 2010. It's going to be difficult to save our wonderful country, this blessed land our forefathers founded, from your type but we will.
By the way, is there a founding father you admire for anything? I'd love to know that.
Duck~
Just because you're a watch-maker who can't tell time doesn't make the watch obsolete.
And, I thought the term 'family values' went out w/ Dan Quayle & Murphy Brown...why not come on back to 2009...? ;)
"The days of the religious right questioning anyone's values are OVER."
So, should we not question one's values when a father rapes his child. Nancy Pelosi & her NAMBLA friends don't think so...Should we not question one's values when a mentally incapacitated person is 'put out of their misery' in the name of euthanasia (which would save the govt. a BUNCH on health care expenses - since they want so desperately to take it over). They'll be able to cull the population quick w/ that kind of logic. Bye, bye, Grandma.
Should we not question their values?
Should we not question the values of groups of people who want to get married including their cats, oh, & Bubbles the Chimp too? After all, they have their Civil Rights, you know.
God forbid we question anyone's values!
Shouldn't human existence be a free-for-all, anyway? Bah, no...no questioning values here...
If it feels good - go ahead, do it. If you're inconvenienced in ANY WAY, plow over the other guy to get what you want...kill that baby in the girlfriend's uterus. Better yet, find out the gender, then decide if you want to kill it or not - depending on what you want. Obama says it's okay to kill it even as he/she's being delivered through the birth canal. But, by all means, if YOU'RE put upon in any regard, you have the RIGHT to do what pleases you best. And SHAME on the person who tries to call you into question. Shame, shame, shame on THEM!
Yeah. You're right; don't let anyone question your values. No guilt, no responsibilities, no obligations, no pesky consequences.
No one questioning values...No conscience, no heart, no soul, no life. Yes, our society would be much better then.
Susannah..BRAVO, thanks SO much for this.
SO WELL PUT...so clear...so, dare I say..OBVIOUS? Apparently not! :0(
No Susannah you straighten out your own house, first, okay.
I get a little short with the types who start this bit about "marrying their cats". Real high class stuff from my "Christian" brethren.
I was the "minister" at my niece's wedding a few weeks back. I like the groom, good kid. veteran, saw combat, decorated. I think they'll do okay. His mother and her married partner were there and I was struck by how genuinely happy the two of them were to be able to say they are married (Massachusetts).
I wonder why they have to take crap from evangelical hypocrites. So as I say, finding a member of the religious right who isn't a self satisfied hypocrite is like trying to find an English language radio station on high dial AM.
And make no mistake about it, you are being marginalized. Everyone else has had it with your act.
Susannah, do you believe that partial birth procedures are the result of serious late term conditions, such as the child's brain developing outside the skull or other conditions which make it impossible for the child to live outside the womb. Or conditions which threaten the mother, are they your decision?
Or do you figure a woman who is 8 months along just goes into the doctor's, slaps her forehead and says "damn, I knew I forgot to do something"?
Let me know, I enjoy reading the workings of the conservative "mind". Like Sarah Palin, you probably don't have a fastball. Just some homilies you heard from the preacher but give it a go.
Should we not question one's values when a mentally incapacitated person is 'put out of their misery' in the name of euthanasia
-------------------------
Susannah will now explain when this has been done outside the express wishes of a living will and strict case law.
My bet is she starts with Terri Schiavo which in fact was a case that ruled on Schiavo's expressed wishes.
Anyway, once again we have the far right firing blanks, but have at it.
"I was the "minister" at my niece's wedding a few weeks back."
Ducky, just curious, why do you have the word minister in quotes? Were you playing pretend preacher in a pretend wedding?
If so, it would be consistent with your pretend confidence in that pretend world you occupy.
No problem, we'll just continue to deal with real life, and you can continue to pretend that you matter.
Pris
Ducky!
My husband & I have had such fun reading your comments! He's not a blogger - only ever reads mine - and never, ever comments (even on mine)! He is, however, taking exception with this. I've done the set up here b/c he doesn't want a blogger account. Here he is...
"Ducky", First of all, let me assure you that our house is in order, "straightened out" by our collective families' heritage and shaped by the values that our great country was founded upon. You know, those that mean nothing to you. Those who share your opinions will wake up one day in a country in complete chaos and wonder who screwed up what was once a great country (oh, and of course spin it to blame conservatives!). Second, in no way, shape, or form could Susannah EVER be classified as a hypocrite. She stands by her beliefs, defends, and lives them. The fact that this offends you is your problem that frustrates you to the point that you have to point fingers and call names. Susannah is true and solid...no act here. The only act is that you wrote that you "minister(ed)" at a wedding. Why put it in quotations if you are truly ordained. If so, God help you and those that you "minister" to (as well as the Massachusetts "partners"). Don't bother responding, because this is all of the time that I have to waste!
Ducky, what's really sad is, forget CATS....the problem will be when someone wants to marry her brother; who's going to be so terribly prejudiced and bigoted NOT to allow that? Will you? What a sad turn of events, huh?
Maybe it'll just be "this is my brother...and my 'married partner'"? I guess it makes for fewer Christmas gifts to buy...if there still IS Christmas when that happens.
Funny about 'hypocritical evangelicals'...Evangelicals are about the only people i personally know who know they are sinners and are sorry about it and try to be better. Not hypocritical...the only ones who aren't hypocritical, probably. No pretense.
By the way...I've SEEN the heat of Susannah's 'house'...her childen, and you have never seen a lovelier family. I don't even know them personally and I'd fight for those children...actually, I am fighting already.
ALL of America would prosper beyond her wildest dreams were more families like Susannah's.
Thank God her kids can just say "Mom and Dad", they don't have to come up with "married partner".
What mail order theology degree did you get? Or is it just one of those certificates you get with Wild West writing on them saying "This Pardner can Marry ye?" I hope your niece will be very happy, and I mean it. I can't picture you respecting her soldier husband. Good for you!
Why turn the tale around with the late term abortion situation, Ducky? YOu know very well there are situations where women just plain decide they don't want that child and need to get rid of it..at any stage. Don't theatricalize with the head-thumping thing....it's silly and obfuscating. How do you, Mr. Catholic, feel about THE ONE's approval of not coming to the aid of an innocent child who escaped an abortion attempt and is alive outside the womb..that silly little 1/16" thickness of an opening out into the world where INSIDE, it's "KILL IT, it's NOT A HUMAN, ANYWAY" and ...1/16" outside that womb, lives and is sick, and it's "GET THE CRASH CARTS >>>SAVE THIS LIFE"
"FIRING BLANKS" (Oh, I wish I was rude enough to make a little joke about parentage here, but I won't)...
suffice it to say that your weak attempt at demoralizing anything beautiful and good and hopeful and life-celebrating is pretty darned blank in itself.
But thanks for trying..it's always fun to straighten you out.
Duck~ I won't bother responding to all your charges. I believe Pris, my Sweetheart & Z have done a fine job there. However, there is one place I must revisit w/ you:
"Susannah, do you believe that partial birth procedures are the result of serious late term conditions...(blah, blah)?"
Duck. I assume you're male, so I'm guessing you've never experienced pregnancy. I think maybe I've got more field experience upon which to answer this rediculous - yes I said it - question.
I had 'pregnancies from H#ll' (3 of them), to quote a worn phrase. Each one brought with it 'hyperemesis gravidarum', which means you literally cannot stop puking. Think hospitalization, IV drip of Phenergan, LOSING 17 pounds in the first trimester. In my 3rd pregnancy, I had to take Zofran (used for chemotherapy patients) for 20 weeks in order to prevent hospitalization. If I had been born 75 or even 50 years ago, I would have DIED EACH TIME before I even truly knew I was pregnant. (How's that for 'health of the mother'?)
At the end of pregnancy, I developed HELLP Syndrome - all 3 times. FYI~ HELLP is the most severe form of Pre-eclampsia, & was only 'discovered' in 1982. It is ALWAYS fatal to both mother & child, if not recognized in time & treated properly.
1) Son born by emergency C-section @ 37 weeks due to my potentially FATAL 'late-term condition'. I was not even awake, our 'condition' was so bad. It's a miracle I'm now a living human being w/ a 12 year old son.
2) Son born 3 days late, thought we'd dodged the bullet, but HELLP showed up & we had to deliver - stat. Again, he & I are both living miracles.
3) Daughter born 5 1/2 weeks early due to that pesky potentially FATAL 'late term condition'.
My doctor had NEVER seen a patient who'd had these 'conditions' at both the beginning AND end of pregnancy; ALL 3 times, at that. Now that you've challenged me on it, I guess you could say that if ever there was a case for 'conditions that harm the mother', it was ME - every time.
Funny, though. Not even once did the idea of killing the life growing inside my sick, weak, wracked body even cross a single synapse in my brain; even as miserable as those times in my life were.
And you know what, Duck? As I look back, those were the times when I was convinced that God was in control, that all would be well, & that surrendering-of-self was absolutely essential in order to just survive.
See, that's what we don't get in our society - the notion that we must surrender ourselves to something Greater, for something Greater...Instead, we have: Feel good? Do it! Want it? Get it!
Life is not about us, dear Duck. It's about living the truth. The Truth saved my life - in every way possible - and I refuse to be intimidated into silence by the likes of 'self-satisfieds' such as yourself, no matter what you'd like to call me.
So, to answer your original question: for the most part I believe American women, steeped in the above described culture, choose to abort babies that could otherwise be saved. I'm glad my mother wasn't one of them.
Susannah? I'm very glad, too.
Who cares whether you are "for Sanford".
Judging by the noise you're making, you do.
The point you miss is that you have lost the high ground and are going to be labeled hypocrites so that your "family values" noise can be stopped once and for all.
"Abolition of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.
On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among the proletarians, and in public prostitution.
The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.
Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.
But, you will say, we destroy the most hallowed of relations, when we replace home education by social.
And your education! Is not that also social, and determined by the social conditions under which you educate, by the intervention, direct or indirect, of society, by means of schools, etc.? The Communists have not invented the intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class.
The bourgeois clap-trap about the family and education, about the hallowed co-relation of parent and child, becomes all the more disgusting, the more, by the action of Modern Industry, all family ties among the proletarians are torn asunder, and their children transformed into simple articles of commerce and instruments of labour." - Karl Marx, "The Communist Manifesto"
"Family values" is the high ground, Ducky. And your charges of hypocrisy require it to remain the high ground.
People of good faith can spot a fraud and a parasite, and you Marxists are both.
The days of the religious right questioning anyone's values are OVER. You are in the process of being completely marginalized as a political entity.
By who? The 5% of Americans that describe themselves as "far left?"
"Gee, I don't feel marginalized."
Here's another one of those pesky blanks for you, Ducky.
Neural Tube Defects (like being born with your brain on the outside??? come on, man. Do some research...) such as hydrocephalus and spina bifida are usually detected between 10-15 weeks gestation. It's a simple blood test to detect the baby's cerebral spinal fluid in the mother's blood.
So.....you don't generally find out about those kinds of diseases (incompatible with life) at 8 months. They find out EARLY in order to offer an EARLY abortion.
Hey Ducky. From one raging hypocrite...I hope you have a good week. Seriously.
Yu know Jen, frankly I don't know nuthin' 'bout birthin' no babies.
However, I do know that the man the far right gunned down a couple weeks ago felt that the procedures he performed were necessary and apparently the mothers did also. I got no impression that they were done casually.
However, there are a large number who wouldn't bother to listen to him, would fill the air waves with aphorisms and would generally make themselves judge and jury.
If there are people out there who can discuss this matter dispassionately I wish they could find a platform but all we get are the Randall Terry's ... but that is going to change. Enough of that strident jerk.
As I said, the preaching of the far right is at an end. People are sick of it.
Well Susannah, we all have stories. I wouldn't make light of yours but it is an aphorism.
Your experience is simply NOT enough to completely inform or define the decision of others.
I will give you some credit for not going off the high side like Beamish who claims he's defending the institution of the family but let's make it clear. You aren't making decisions for other women. You are not the one who decides whether God is or is not in control.
My sister told me stories about friends who bled out after a self induced abortion. One died from the hemorrhage. So the events which inform our attitudes do vary.
Duck~
I'm so glad I had my dictionary handy. Aphorism? No, my experience is not, "a short, wise saying," or whatever the heck you were implying.
Yes, we all have stories. Sharing mine was not intended to 'completely inform' anyone or anything. Nor does it assume decision-making for other people. (You, my friend, are trying to put me & people w/ my 'values' in a nice neat box. Sorry; ain't gonna happen.)
I shared my experience simply to counter-balance the so over-used notion of 'health of the mother'.
I'M SO SICK of hearing THAT (see, I can play, too!). Eyes glaze over when those words are spoken (b/c they don't know what it really means), & the Pro-Abortion Left makes good use of it. Nobody will dare challenge. They all say, "oh well of course...I guess partial birth abortion would be okay under THOSE circumstances."
I'm saying I've BEEN there. LIVED it. Feared for MY life & my child's. There ARE alternatives to killing a fetus & dragging it through its mother's bloody cervix.
Women dying on the floors of bathrooms in the 50's & 60's was tragic. Anywhere it happens today is tragic also. This is a complex issue, & I'm not trying to simplify it. But you & your friends DON'T hold all the answers, sir.
Let's get the party started, shall we, Duck? Why not drag out 'ol George Tiller - God have mercy on his soul. The guy w/ the gun murdered him (not the gun itself, mind you, but that's another topic). Not good; not even close...but as you say, there are some crazies out there. But I'm not one of them, as you're trying to imply.
Good day all~ I've got children to take care of, thank God above!
'The far right gunned' someone down, Ducky? WOW.......that must have been some HUGE trigger, huh?
I fluctuate...if you do believe in God and know Scripture, you know abortion's not his pleasure, to say the least. Life is HIS to give and HIS to take.
If you don't believe in God, who'd CARE about an abortion, although some secularists, too, feel killing an unborn child is wrong.
I'm mostly on the side of "it's a decision a mother has to make and God be with her...and the child." And may God help those who choose against life.
I often wonder at the enormous amount of women I've heard of, now in their fifties and sixties, who are guilt ridden for having had an abortion, Ducky. What IS that, do you think? What makes them feel so terribly guilty...later? Even, or maybe especially?, those who went on to have a child or two...
I grieve for those women. And I wonder if they'd say, today, that it was worth it. Makes me almost cry thinking about it right now.
I had a friend who took me to lunch to tell me she and her husband, after many abortions with him and before him (VERY wealthy liberal elitist) were "pregnant! and we're going to KEEP THIS ONE!" I'll never forget those words.
Well, z, you just try to teach your children.
My niece is pregnant. She is going to have the baby and we'll all do our best to get her through this.
It's going to be more difficult than she imagines but she has quite a bit of support. A lot of women don't, life goes on and it's pretty damn difficult. More difficult with the self righteous preaching of the far right.
The 'far right' knows Scripture, Ducky. They're not acting on their own self-righteousness; they have as many fallen as you seem to...they just admit it and know it's wrong and that society does NOT work as well with the things we're doing now. Children do not do as well without an intact family.
I take it you mean your unmarried niece is pregnant. I'm sorry for her as it's a very difficult situation. But, not so much these days. People almost celebrate that.
We had a huge baby shower for an unwed mother at our church premises, something I highly disagreed with. There are places you do that and places you don't...that wasn't one of the places to do it, in my humble opinion. Does that mean I don't love that child who's coming or didn't think they should get together and collect gifts and good wishes for mother and child? Of course not.
Look, Ducky, we can argue this forever; why bother?
You aren't stupid and you seem not to know Scripture, but I am studying it and do believe in God and His Word. Am I to be insulted more and more by you and other open-minded secularists for my beliefs?
Apparently so.
Ducky,
Touched a nerve, did I?
We all know you're not on about stopping "hypocrisy," but rather about stopping family values themselves.
"Abolition of the family!" That's your rallying cry, and the fact that you're too embarassed to admit it makes your feeble claims of marginalizing anyone rather neon pathetic.
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