Sunday, January 24, 2010

Sunday Faith Blog

See what remained standing among the ruins in Port au Prince?
Let's pray that the Haitians are also standing tall after all of this and that their faith grows and that, somehow, changes are made in their leadership to where they actually start to see prosperity in their country.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5,6

100 comments:

Linda said...

Isn't this amazing! I got it yesterday in an email, so I'm glad you posted it today!

Sunday blessings to you, my friend!

JINGOIST said...

G-d bless and keep ALL of you good Christians on your sabbath day.

Voodoo religion is ALL OVER Haiti! It's nice to actually see a cross.

Beth said...

A picture says 1,000 words, indeed!

Sue said...

This gave me chills. It reminded me that God is STILL in control. It also reminded me of this:

http://stkarnick.com/blog2/2009/08/post_271.html

Just saying...

FairWitness said...

You are an extraordinary woman, Z. The compassion & empathy you demonstrate toward the people of Haiti and others in need, during this time of tremendous personal sorrow, inspires me to be a better person.

God bless you. Thank you for reminding us all how powerful faith is. You are truly God's servant.

Anonymous said...

The biggest religious influence in Haiti has been Catholicism (about 80%) of the population and the next biggest influence has been voodooism. The desperation of Haiti even before this disaster has been contributed in large part by the Church of Rome, and medieval times is where they thrive and belong, IMO.

Getting Haiti back on its feet again — why not try the capitalist approach? Declare Haiti a tax free haven for individuals and investors since the country is in the Caribbean let it become another tourist mecca. Deport the voodoo-ists and isolate and reduce the influence of the Church, that way the ducks will have to find another country in which to hibernate.

Waylon

WomanHonorThyself said...

amen Z..Ahhh Happy Sunday my friend!:)

Z said...

WAYLON, voodoo permeates the society even as 80% claim Catholicism...it's an undertone that's undeniable and very dark. It IS sad that many Catholic countries seem poor and the churches are solid gold, so to speak...but that's the BUSINESS of the church which creates that irony, not the Christianity behind it.

Sunday blessings to you, too, Linda.

Jingo and Woman Honor Thyself; two of our Jewish friends who so enthusiastically honor me by being here and commenting at my Sunday Faith Blog.
Thank you...and God bless you both. You're terrific.

Beth, it SURE DOES!!

FairWitness...these posts write themselves....this isn't ME, but I sure do appreciate your kind words...I wish I was all of that :-)

Sue..WOW! I had seen and forgotten that........must be just a COINCIDENCE, huh? (not)

Anonymous said...

"It IS sad that many Catholic countries seem poor and the churches are solid gold, so to speak...but that's the BUSINESS of the church which creates that irony, not the Christianity behind it."

It is sad, Z. Has the Church of Rome remained mired in its medieval mentality? The upper echelons of it seem to have had a hard time accepting the Reformation. I guess it explains the enmity of the left, Islam and Catholicism to the idea of individual choice and responsibility — and why they would all hate to the very depths the founding principles of America. They want docile slaves who will do as they say ...

Just to be clear it is the upper levels of the Catholic Church that is rotten and at the lower levels I'm sure they would be blissfully unaware of what is being decided for them at the upper levels — and I do think the Reformation was a positive step away from the enslaving dogma of the Church, the inquisitions and the denial of the real world around them — i.e. Galileo.

Waylon

Anonymous said...

This is amazing. How can one not ascribe a meaning to this? I remember at ground zero in NY, the old church which survived unscathed amidst the devastation.

Like Haiti, voodoo is also practiced in Trinidad, however it's against the law there. That doesn't seem to have stopped it though. I'm not sure that law is enforced.

My relatives there (those who remain), who are Portugese, have told us that while they are devout Christians, they do have a fear of the practice of voodoo.

Pris

Faith said...

I ordinarily appreciate such "coincidences" but in this case the preservation of a very Catholic -- not Christian -- symbol -- isn't necessarily a good sign. The Catholic church in Haiti ALLOWS the evil religion of voodoo even among its own members as I understand it. Voodoo is a super scary religion. I can understand why Pris' relatives fear it. The Haitians fear it too. It's a blood-sacrifice religion -- chickens, goats -- its shamans go into trances with their eyes rolled back into their heads, and they communicate with evil spirits who will do their bidding (although the spirits are no doubt the ones in control, not the human shamans), even killing people.

Here's a You Tube video done by a Haitian Christian on voodoo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQpzMjtMeCA&feature=related

Z said...

Faith, I believe that's the whole point...the Christ is there, surviving over all, dying for us all on the cross. That's not a 'very Catholic' symbol any more than it's a very ORTHODOX symbol. I know protestants have a problem with Christ still on the cross but, in my childhood as an Orthodox Christian (which I'm drawn to again lately), it was a reminder to us of his great sacrifice for US. I don't want to argue this here, I just want to add another valid viewpoint on that subject.

Waylon, Excellent comments, thanks.
Odd, but just this morning I participated in an unexpected discussion on Martin Luther. Some think he was anti Catholic and that's the farthest from the truth...his point was "let me stay a monk but let me bring people to the Word ONLY..SOLO SCRIPTURA..." An ex Catholic friend was in on this discussion and said that, as children, they were told (40 years ago or so) that "your leaders will tell you the Word...we'll explain it for you".but, she added "We never READ it so what they hoped to explain to us, I don't know..."
I believe the Catholic church is changing...actually, I KNOW it is...several churches have the redeemed cross, not a crucifix, and they do put Jesus first, and praying directly TO him, without praying thru Mary or Peter, for example.
I am not a Catholic basher because I believe we're all brothers and sisters in Christ and I know far too many Catholics who DO study the Scripture and put that above ALL.
And I don't want Catholic bashing here.
I know Ducky says he's Catholic, and that's fine, tho I've never known a Catholic to call prayer a 'racket'....but as much as he jumps on any chance to slam Protestantism, I will not return in (un)kind and I won't have it here.

Pris, very interesting about Trinidad, thanks for that info.
People I have heard discuss Haiti's faith say that Voodoo is underlying in some of their lives..maybe lots of lives, though I hope not. There were people fighting this the other day on my Haiti Disaster post, and still might be, some fighting to let the Haitians be in peace with their voodoo......it's hard for a thinking person to wrap their brain around people who want to practice this kind of darkness, there's no happiness, no joy in it, no peace, just FEAR....
It's not our place to prohibit but it's our place to enlighten their lives.

A year or so ago, a woman here in my neighborhood had an argument with another and told me she'd put a representation of this man in her ice tray with pins in it, and she was hoping he'd pass away.....I thought how evil it was and what an awful way to live, wishing tragedy on others. She's Jewish, not a VOODOO nut..and, of course, her Judaism has ZILCH to do with THAT kind of idiot thing she's doing!!

Faith said...

Z, Luther STARTED OUT not wanting to overthrow Catholicism, but was forced to it by the Catholic response to his challenge to their practices, and he was very definitely Anti-Catholic for the rest of his life, as were all the Reformers.

Z said...

from Martin Luther: "The chief cause that I fell out with the pope was this: the pope boasted that he was the head of the Church, and condemned all that would not be under his power and authority; for he said, although Christ be the head of the Church, yet, notwithstanding, there must be a corporal head of the Church upon earth. With this I could have been content, had he but taught the gospel pure and clear, and not introduced human inventions and lies in its stead. Further, he took upon him power, rule, and authority over the Christian Church, and over the Holy Scriptures, the Word of God; no man must presume to expound the Scriptures, but only he, and according to his ridiculous conceits; so that he made himself lord over the Church, proclaiming her at the same time a powerful mother, and empress over the Scriptures, to which we must yield and be obedient; this was not to be endured. They who, against God's Word, boast of the Church's authority, are mere idiots. The pope attributes more power to the Church, which is begotten and born, than to the Word, which has begotten, conceived, and born the Church. "

Faith said...

Calvin and Luther saw the Antichrist as both the papacy and Islam: The papacy was the Western Antichrist and Islam the Eastern Antichrist. Calvin refered to them as the two "horns" and Luther called them the two "legs" of the Antichrist. (Luther's Works, Weimer ed., 53, 394f)

http://www.leftbehindanswered.com/antichrist.htm

Faith said...

What you quoted is a good description of why Luther had to become anti-Catholic, Z. And that description of the Pope is true to this day.

Z said...

"With this I could have been content, had he but taught the gospel pure and clear, and not introduced human inventions and lies in its stead."

Faith said...

Yes, Luther recognized that he could have been content had the Pope not shown that he usurps all the power and standing of Christ. Isn't that what that quote says? He could have been content IF, but the IF was false. Luther found out the true nature of the Pope as he was brought under his censure, and finally he saw through the whole false system. It took years. He had been a solidly committed Catholic.

Faith said...

IF, that is, the papacy had not introduced human inventions and lies in stead of the gospel.

Just to be accurate about the quote.

Ducky's here said...

Back to Jingoists argument by design. In other words the world can be seen teleologically, it has a purpose.

What is the purpose and what can I learn about that purpose from this tragedy?

I'm pretty sure I know what's coming but I believe it is a worthwhile question.

Ducky's here said...

Waylon, thanks for making it clear.

Oh, is that a Protestant crucifix or a Catholic crucifix?

Ducky's here said...

Dear Pat Robertson,

I know that you know that all press is good press, so I appreciate the shout-out. And you make God look like a big mean bully who kicks people when they are down, so I'm all over that action. But when you say that Haiti has made a pact with me, it is totally humiliating. I may be evil incarnate, but I'm no welcher. The way you put it, making a deal with me leaves folks desperate and impoverished. Sure, in the afterlife, but when I strike bargains with people, they first get something here on earth -- glamour, beauty, talent, wealth, fame, glory, a golden fiddle. Those Haitians have nothing, and I mean nothing. And that was before the earthquake. Haven't you seen "Crossroads"? Or "Damn Yankees"? If I had a thing going with Haiti, there'd be lots of banks, skyscrapers, SUVs, exclusive night clubs, Botox -- that kind of thing. An 80 percent poverty rate is so not my style. Nothing against it -- I'm just saying: Not how I roll. You're doing great work, Pat, and I don't want to clip your wings -- just, come on, you're making me look bad. And not the good kind of bad. Keep blaming God. That's working. But leave me out of it, please. Or we may need to renegotiate your own contract.

Best,

Satan

Z said...

Ducky, if you don't understand Scripture, just keep quiet. You will NEVER know, you can't understand with your attitude..

For one, a CRUCIFIX has Christ ON the cross, which you must know as a Catholic. Most Protestants don't wear a crucifix, they were a 'redeemed' cross, Christ is gone and died for our sins.
I wear either because I was raised Orthodox and love the crucifix for all it stands for...

you might not AGREE with Waylon but many do, as do I.....and that doesn't make HIm wrong, TRUST me, Ducky. And nobody needs your sarcasm.
Your screed on Robertson's not worth addressing...you don't even make sense.

Faith..YES, on all of the above..thanks.

Anonymous said...

Faith, you're assuming the Catholic church or any church in Haiti has the power to disallow voodoo or anything else.

I'm sure the church feels the best way to fight voodooism is to embrace the parishioners in hopes they'll see the light.

What else would you have them do?

As I told you, voodoo is illegal in Trinidad, yet it is still practiced. In fact, here in the US, it's not illegal to my knowledge.

Frankly, I don't understand this tension or competition or whatever it is between Protestantism and Catholicism. They're both Christian religions. Each to his own, and neither has to subscribe to the other's practices.

It seems to me that the Christian way is to accept we are not all alike, and we are to behave as Christians, and harbor no ill will towards each other.

If a religion bears us no ill will, or means no harm towards those of us who worship differently, why argue over which is best?

I think we have to remember the clergy is made up of men not Gods, and therein lies the rub.

It's our faith in God that matters, and for Christians, our belief in Christ as well.

Pris

Bloviating Zeppelin said...

Sometimes things really DO happen for a reason, and sometimes that reason is abundantly clear.

BZ

Faith said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Faith said...

Pris, I can tell you that no true Protestant church would allow a voodoo practitioner into membership. If they are there in secret there's nothing that can be done and they will answer to the Lord themselves, but if they're found out the church must excommunicate them. "What accord can there be between Christ and the devil?"

But it isn't just a passive thing. The Catholic church has been pretty much positively embracing anti-Christian religions since Vatican II, treating them as valid ways to God in themselves, contrary to scripture. According to Luther and Calvin and a slew of others, the papacy always was the Antichrist system (and probably will be the seat of the final Antichrist in the very last days) so it's actually logical that they now take obvious anti-Christian religions under their wing.

I'm very sorry to hear that you don't know anything about the history of the Protestant Reformation because there is indeed a HUGE HUGE conflict -- the difference between eternal life and death.

This isn't about ill will, this is about truth. I'm not into "bashing" anybody, but I think if you love your Catholic friends you don't let them stay comfortably within that system for their own sake. "Come out of her, My people lest you partake of her plagues" says the Lord.

Faith said...

That's such a cleverly written piece by "Satan" I feel like applauding.

But I do have to point out that although he does his best to give his slaves what they want from him, it's usually people like rock stars who can do something FOR him in return who get the temporary perks in this life and his ultimate aim is to destroy human beings one way or another anyway. All WILL be judged by God in the end. Unfortunately Haiti's been getting it sooner rather than later. We can only hope they will throw out the devil and get a new footing in Christ and start to see genuine comfort and prosperity.

Ducky's here said...

Excellent post, Pris

Anonymous said...

Faith, don't be sorry for me. I have no need nor want for pity.

And I love my friends for who they are. I don't insert myself into their personal beliefs as I believe it's not my place to do so.

They are good caring people, and I think they'll be at the head of the line when their lives are done here on Earth.

It's too bad any church would turn away anyone. They miss the chance to teach Christ's teachings, perhaps to a soul seeking something better.

It seems to me Jesus Christ accepted anyone who sought him out, and forgave those who denied Him.

Having said that Faith, I'm not going to argue religion with you.

My own Portugese ancestors fled Europe and left everything behind except what they could carry, because of the inquisition. Yet today there is no animosity towards Catholics in my family. That's how I was raised.

So, I think it best if we don't argue this. Let's just let it be.

Pris

Anonymous said...

Well thank you Ducky, I'm trying not to faint. Ha, ha.

Seriously, it's good to see we can agree on something.

Pris

Z said...

Faith, We don't know that Catholic priests have willingly and knowingly let anybody who practices voodoo into membership in their church.
But, mostly, we are not the judge and we can only put the Good News out there and it's the Holy Spirit which leads people from then on. We can't "seal the deal".
If they ARE practicing voodoo and coming to church, perhaps there's a chance then that their hearts are changed and they'll leave voodoo behind.
By leaving them out, there's little chance of that.

psi bond said...

Sorry dude, you se[e] famine and poverty EVRYWHERE. Voodoo is primarily concerned with healing and wellness. Know about the Crusaders and the devastation they caused? Christians seem to be bent on the destruction of everyone having the freedom of choice! Every place has distinct customs that seem odd to Americans. GOD wants humans to convey love and acceptance, not judgment and hate.
-- centralcoastCA, blog comment on the SteveCrownCaster video about voodoo on YouTube

Unfortunately, many who are convinced theirs is the one true Christian sect tend to be intolerant of any other kind, and devoutly make it their mission to patronizingly intrude themselves into the individual beliefs of persons they consider pitiful pagans in need of their prayers.

Faith said...

Z, I DO know that the church has "willingly and knowingly" let voodoo practitioners be members of the church. I wouldn't have said such a thing if I didn't have sources for that information. Mostly on audio but here's one in print:

From time to time from 1860 until the late 1940s the Catholic Church waged campaigns against Voodoo. They never came to anything.

In 1941-42 some elements of the Catholic Church waged an all out physical, holy war against Voodoo. They burned peristyle, Voodoo shrines, beat (some say even killed) houngans and mambo, demanded their ostracism from society and shot things up. But, they lost. Voodoo went under-ground to some extent, but it grew in popularity, in large measure because of the oppression.

By the early 1950s the Catholic hierarchy halted this war, got rid of these priest warriors and made their peace with Voodoo. Voodoo drums and melodies were incorporated into Catholic church services. The Catholics took the position, if you can't defeat them, co-opt them. Relative peace has held between the Catholics and serviteurs ever since.


This is what some apparently think is such a good idea. If you can't lick em join em. As I said, no true Protestant denomination would do this. It doesn't lead them to Christ, it simply consolidates them in their wrong beliefs.

shoprat said...

Even a match burns brightly in a total darkness, and that cross is indeed a dim light, but it burns brightly in otherwise total darkness.

Z said...

Here are some 'rules' of voodoo....sound good to YOU, psi Bond?

# If you lay a broom across the doorway at night, a witch can't come in and hurt you.
# Having a woman visit you the first thing on Monday mornings is bad luck for the rest of the week.
# Don't borrow or lend salt because that is bad luck.
# If you sweep trash out of the house after dark you will sweep away your luck.
# Don't shake a tablecloth outside after dark or someone in your family will die.
# To stop a Voodoo spell being placed upon you, acquire some bristles from a pig cooked at a Voodoo ritual, tie the bristles into a bundle and carry them on you at all times.
# If a woman sprinkles some salt from her house to yours, it will give you bad luck until you clean the salt away and put pepper over your door sill.
# If a woman wants her husband to stay away from other woman, she can do so by putting a little of her blood in his coffee, and he will never quit her.
# If a woman's husband dies and you don't want her to marry again, cut all of her husband's shoes all in little pieces, just as soon as he is dead, and she will never marry again.
# You can give someone a headache by taking and turning their picture upside down.
# You can harm a person in whatever way you want to by getting a lock of his hair and burning some and throwing the rest away.
# You can make a farmer's well go dry by putting some soda in the well for one week, each day; then drawing a bucket of water out and throwing it in the river to make the well go dry. [

It's mostly about HURTING people, vengeance, ...
My God, again I have people standing up for Voodoo on my blog.
Stop it...it doesn't fly here, no matter WHAT justification or OPEN MINDEDNESS thinks Haitians should be able to practice it.
I DO NOT CARE. I don't WANT A POSITIVE SLANT ON VOODOO HERE. it's not only "ODD", psi bond, voodoo is DARK and vengeful and robs people of joy.
I hope you can find some bristles of a pig cooked in Voodoo rituals...good luck.

thank you.

Z said...

Faith, I just read up on more elsewhere and it's true...your comments are absolutely true and NO, NO PROTESTANT church would put up with VOODOO underpinnings..or ANY VOODOO ANYTHING.

Shoprat, as usual, you say with such few words all many of us have been trying to say. Thank you.xxx

psi bond said...

First and foremost Voodoo is a religion. It is the dominant religion of Haiti. Many of the practices and descriptions of Voodoo belief may sound to us like rank superstition, but then, imagine the beliefs of Christianity to people who know nothing about it. Tell them about the trinity or the resurrection, or the presence of Jesus in the eucharist. Any of these practices which very intelligent Christians believe in the fullest would seem no less superstitious to someone unfamiliar with Christianity.

Thus I urge you to recognize that Voodoo is Haiti's religion, it is taken very seriously not merely by unlettered peasants, but many intelligent and learned members of the Haitian society believe as sincerely in Voodoo as do German theology professors in their Christianity. In no way do I expect you to believe in Voodoo; no more than I would expect you to convert to Islam if I taught a course on that religion. But, please do recognize that it is every bit as real a religion as the major religions of the world.....'

During this 56 year period houngans and mambos built up the public religion of Haiti, Voodoo, in a weird amalgamation of African spirit religion and Catholicism. Virtually all lwa became associated with Catholic saints (Dumballah the snake lwa is St. Patrick; Erzulie, the earth mother is the Virgin Mary). The most important consequence of this is that Haitians see nothing odd at all with practicing Voodoo and Catholicism side by side and are often very devout about each of them.

I can't explain this, I only describe it.

From time to time from 1860 until the late 1940s the Catholic Church waged campaigns against Voodoo. They never came to anything.

In 1941-42 some elements of the Catholic Church waged an all out physical, holy war against Voodoo. They burned peristyle, Voodoo shrines, beat (some say even killed) houngans and mambo, demanded their ostracism from society and shot things up. But, they lost. Voodoo went under-ground to some extent, but it grew in popularity, in large measure because of the oppression.

By the early 1950s the Catholic hierarchy halted this war, got rid of these priest warriors and made their peace with Voodoo. Voodoo drums and melodies were incorporated into Catholic church services. The Catholics took the position, if you can't defeat them, co-opt them. Relative peace has held between the Catholics and serviteurs ever since.

The Protestants.

Until the 1970s Haiti was nearly 100% Catholic.

In the 1970s evangelical Protestantism came to Haiti. After Reagan came to power evangelization mushroomed.

Evangelical Protestants are bitter enemies of Voodoo and denounce it all the time as devil worship. Many of these people claim that Haiti's misery is because she is being punished by God for the sins of her Voodoo serviteurs.

Protestantism has come to Haiti as a serious business. Evangelical Protestants groups own 7 of Haiti's 11 radio stations and have made significant gains in conversions.

Today most observers believe that at least 15% of the Christians in Haiti are Protestant evangelicals
.

beamish said...

The Haiti people have been brought down low by these earthquakes.

THe only "religious" comment I'd like to interject here is a hope that Haiti doesn't "come back from Hell emptyhanded."

Too many outsiders trying to tell the Haitians what to learn from this tragedy, I think.

psi bond said...

Z: Here are some 'rules' of voodoo....sound good to YOU, psi Bond?

They are not rules of the religion but popular superstitions that you take from a Wikipedia article on Louisiana Voodoo, which differs from Haitian Voodoo. The are not part of the Voodoo faith proper.

In the paragraph before the list you reproduce, Wikipedia says:

Many superstitions also related to the practice of Hoodoo developed within the Voodoo tradition in Louisiana. While these superstitions are not central to the Voodoo faith, their appearance is partly a result of Voodoo tradition in New Orleans and have since influenced it significantly

Of course, this should not be taken to say that I advocate anyone adopt the Voodoo faith or another faith.

psi bond said...

Today, Voodoo is a major tourist attraction to the city of New Orleans. Shops selling gris-gris, charms, candles, and powders cater to both tourists and Voodoo practitioners. 'The New Orleans Historic Voodoo Museum' houses numerous Voodoo artifacts and provides daily tours of the museum, the St. Louis Cemetery, and the New Orleans French Quarter. The museum also provides spiritual services including matrimony blessings, marriage ceremonies, gris-gris bags, consultations, and various other Voodoo rituals. In addition, the Disney film The Princess and the Frog is set in New Orleans and the villain as well as the mentor figure practice Voodoo.
--Wikipedia, Louisiana Voodoo

Z said...

psi bond. I don't give a damn. I don't care about voodoo.
Knock yourself out with comment after comment. You trying to talk YOURSELF into it?
It's revenge and superstition and yes, Haiti's voodoo is also those two things.

When you have leftwingers like Danny Glover saying the comment below, by the way, I'd say leftwingers ought to keep their mouths shut on Pat Robertson's comments AND voodoo:

"The second form of superstition that harms Haiti was expressed by actor and leftist activist Danny Glover, who said concerning the earthquake, “When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I’m sayin’?”

beamish said...

Z,

Danny Glover said that?!

I know the left takes its divination by data skewing seriously, but damn.

We've definitely got to get a handle on this global warming thing so we can only have earthquakes where and when they're convenient or tactically necessary.

::rolls eyes::

psi bond said...

Z: psi bond. I don't give a damn. I don't care about voodoo.
Knock yourself out with comment after comment
.

You’re knocking yourself out thinking this is about you or whether you give a damn. You can swear up and down, but it’s about respect for the Haitian people, for, as beamish rightly observed for once, “Too many outsiders trying to tell the Haitians what to learn from this tragedy, I think.” Evangelicals have always been bitter enemies of Voodoo, and they see their chance to pounce now, not allowing a horrendous disaster to go to waste.

You trying to talk YOURSELF into it?

You must be kidding. At least, that’s the only rational explanation for that question.

It's revenge and superstition and yes, Haiti's voodoo is also those two things

There are significant differences. You seem averse to distinctions when you speak of things you abhor. One can find elements of both these things in the history of Christianity. Furthermore, it is arguable, and it has been argued, that every religion is superstition, in its popular and doctrinal beliefs.

According to Wikipedia, the beliefs of Louisiana Voodoo vary somewhat from person to person. Louisiana Voodoo combines elements of European and African beliefs, and Roman Catholicism. It is a dynamic religion that has both adapted to and shaped New Orleans culture.

When you have leftwingers like Danny Glover saying the comment below, by the way, I'd say leftwingers ought to keep their mouths shut on Pat Robertson's comments AND voodoo.

That’s as sensible as saying, after Bush flubbed his lines, all Republicans should keep their mouths shut. I don't believe Danny Glover is considered an example of a liberal pundit, or that he is the only liberal who has said something that rightwingers can misrepresent as a gaffe.

"The second form of superstition that harms Haiti was expressed by actor and leftist activist Danny Glover, who said concerning the earthquake, “When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I’m sayin’?”

I don’t claim to know what he was saying in the out-of-context quote you give (few do), but I like the comment of Nicholas Kristof on Pat Robertson's shameful accusation. I think Kristof said it best: It is “defamatory of God.” I would add: To suppose God would do this is to think he is no better than the most heinous criminals here on earth.

You show a penchant for taking utterly unrelated things and pretending one is just cause for condemning the other.

psi bond said...

January 16, 2010 – The earthquake in Haiti that has resulted in tens of thousands of deaths and inflicted untold misery on the inhabitants of that country has also brought to the fore five superstitions that have inflicted or will inflict even more misery on those poor people.

1) God’s revenge

The first superstition is reflected in the nonsense spewed from the mouth of Rev. Pat Robertson, host of The 700 Club TV show and long-time Christian nutcase. Robertson alleged that the earthquake was caused by God’s vengeance on the Haitians. They had apparently made a pact with the Devil several hundred years ago that allowed them to gain their independence from France. Robertson is known for such ignorant allegations. He maintained that hurricanes are punishments for homosexual activities—though his god uses such storms to indiscriminately kill gays and straights alike. The September 11 attacks by Islamists were punishment for America’s secular sins—even though individuals of all religions were killed on that day.

It’s truly perverse for worshippers to argue that their alleged God of Mercy butchers innocent Haitian children and reaps collective vengeance for the alleged crimes of their ancestors hundreds of years ago. Yet, sadly, even some Haitians are repeating this line.

What is truly dangerous is not that a single individual like Robertson utters such nonsense; rather, it’s that thousands of people send him money to support his efforts rather than relegating him to obscurity, to say nothing of the poverty and misery that he deserves.

2) Gaia’s revenge

The second form of superstition that harms Haiti was expressed by actor and leftist activist Danny Glover, who said concerning the earthquake, “When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I’m sayin’?” Actually, we do know.......

Z said...

oh, psi bond... please remind me of any time I've talked up Pat Roberton's statements.
Or that I'd try to stop haitians from whatever they want to practice; I have every right to say voodoo is not helping that society, which is pretty clear by the way, and if they want to continue, that's their right.
this isn't a time anybody here chose to bash Haitians about voodoo..this is a time some of us chose to discuss how sad it is that they do practice it and how it relates to Christianity.
Nobody's hating Haitians or wishing them bad or slamming them now.
It's the leftwingers who can't waste a crisis, by the way.
Your remark about God is so ill informed it deserves no response.

Z said...

psi bond. SO WHAT?
STOP! My GOSH!

beamish said...

PsiBond,

...as beamish rightly observed for once, “Too many outsiders trying to tell the Haitians what to learn from this tragedy, I think.”

If only you'd try to integrate that philosophy into politics. You'd hate government solutions to government-caused problems as well.

Z said...

BINGO, Beamish.
they only have to open their eyes.

psi bond said...

oh, psi bond... please remind me of any time I've talked up Pat Roberton's statements.

Ah, Z, it’s not about you personally or necessarily anything you said yourself.

Or that I'd try to stop haitians from whatever they want to practice;

As you do here, you always bring up matters that are not at issue.

I have every right to say voodoo is not helping that society, which is pretty clear by the way, and if they want to continue, that's their right.

Everyone also has a right to say that, in his humble view, Jews who remain true to their faith are going to hell. Or that Louisiana Voodooists are not serving the best interests of America , or are begetting God’s judgment on America. You may offend a few persons, but it is your inalienable right, and that, too, is not at issue.

this isn't a time anybody here chose to bash Haitians about voodoo..this is a time some of us chose to discuss how sad it is that they do practice it and how it relates to Christianity.

Did you hear what Pat Robertson said? It doesn’t seem like it. The overwhelming majority of Haitians are Christians, but you wouldn’t know that from most of the discussion here. Voodoo beliefs are amalgamated with Christian beliefs and give them great comfort and courage.

Nobody's hating Haitians or wishing them bad or slamming them now.

That’s not the issue, either. Whether they realize it or not, many are not respecting their right to choose what is best for themselves.

It's the leftwingers who can't waste a crisis, by the way.

Without doubt, rightwing evangelists are not letting this disaster slip by to pile on the “wicked” practices among the Haitian people.

Your remark about God is so ill informed it deserves no response.

Your humble opinion notwithstanding, Robertson’s foul accusation was certainly defamatory of God. I have information from the same source as you, since the Ayn Randian author whom you quoted only about Danny Glover, also wrote:

It’s truly perverse for worshippers to argue that their alleged God of Mercy butchers innocent Haitian children and reaps collective vengeance for the alleged crimes of their ancestors hundreds of years ago.

psi bond said...

psi bond. SO WHAT?
STOP! My GOSH!


Golly geeeeez! Z, stop what? I disagree with your sweeping judgments on what I say, even when we are in agreement. Hence, in a rational forum, discussion is called for.

psi bond said...

...as beamish rightly observed for once, “Too many outsiders trying to tell the Haitians what to learn from this tragedy, I think.”

If only you'd try to integrate that philosophy into politics. You'd hate government solutions to government-caused problems as well.

I agree, beamish; we should integrate that view into policy which discourages a paternalistic neocolonialist outlook on barbarian practices of putatively pitiful pagan peoples, whether in Haiti or New Orleans, where Voodoo shops are helping rejuvenate the city’s tourist economy.

We should not treat the terrible earthquake in Haiti as a crisis not to be passed up for reinforcing the traditional distrust in government solutions that is central to devout U.S. rightwingers. To dig itself out, Haiti will need a lot of Haitian government programs in partnership with foreign governments. That is, assuming those on the right here who believe it is useless to aid Haiti do not prevail.

psi bond said...

Z:BINGO, Beamish.
they only have to open their eyes
.

Opening one's eyes, one sees that rightwing ideologues are poised to exploit the most remotely related things to try to advance their beliefs.

beamish said...

PsiBond,

Opening one's eyes, one sees that rightwing ideologues are poised to exploit the most remotely related things to try to advance their beliefs.

Political in tragedy much?

There is nothing "remotely related" to exploit the fact that private and religious organizations are getting assistance to the Haitians faster than governments are. It is what it is. They're feeding people while governments are voting on how and how much. It's right-wing only in the belief that charity should not be a function of government.

Z said...

Psi Bond, you show a lack of having read and digested the thread when you say things like the following quoted comment of yours.
"We should not treat the terrible earthquake in Haiti as a crisis not to be passed up for reinforcing the traditional distrust in government solutions that is central to devout U.S. rightwingers. To dig itself out, Haiti will need a lot of Haitian government programs in partnership with foreign governments. That is, assuming those on the right here who believe it is useless to aid Haiti do not prevail."

Completely ignoring input, twisting words.. Not a way to win an argument. But, typical for you. "useless to aid Haiti?" WOW.

Ducky's here said...

There is nothing "remotely related" to exploit the fact that private and religious organizations are getting assistance to the Haitians faster than governments are.

---------------------

You're spouting a pantload as usual, Beamish. Financial contributions are only a piece of this issue.

There are matters like distribution, transportation, security that are far more important in the early stages and governments have done well to manage the chaos.

The contributions tend to get front loaded and trickle off long before the need runs out.

I know you hate government but let's face it, the Southern Baptists aren't going to deal with air trafic control at the airport.

Ducky's here said...

Meanwhile, z, let's face it. Some fundamentalists are in a bind.

I ask this question: Since many of your posters feel it is fine to dismiss the entire Muslim world and bomb it as you see fit because of the presence of an extremist element, why doesn't that hold true for American Protestants? They have refused to disavow Pat Robertson so shouldn't they all be included in that camp just as you treat Muslims?

beamish said...

Ducky,

I know you hate government but let's face it, the Southern Baptists aren't going to deal with air trafic control at the airport.

I know it's impossible to be literate and leftist simultaneously, but when I say charity shouldn't be a function of government I am not considering air traffic control to be an act of charity.

Feel free to adjust your monitor's brightness knob.

Ducky's here said...

Oh I see, Beamish, people should donate and then have no way to deliver the relief.

Hear the sound? it's your cornermen yelling "Stay down".

Anonymous said...

Ducky, here's an interesting quote, straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. It's from the place where you were originally schooled, FPM. Did you miss that class, too?

"Khomeini accordingly delivered notorious rebuke to the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace crowd: “Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

Now for God's sake, pay attention!

Waylon

Ducky's here said...

Waylon are you so inert that you don't know that most realize the danger of the radical element in Islam?

That includes OTHER MUSLIMS? Remember that the reason some order was brought to Iraq was not the useless U.S. Marines but the fact that the Sunni - Al-Qaeda alliance never took place because al-Qaeda was far to radical for the Iraqi population which is moderate.

Now go back to reading Robert Spencer and continue with the task of lowering your awareness but do not tell people to listen up when you are dealing from a position of ignorance

Anonymous said...

Ducky, don't you at least acknowledge that Ayatollah Kohmeini, the Supreme Leader of Iran, would understand Islam and the Koran? After all that is the source of the quote that Spencer used.

I think you are saying that you know best and nobody but you can or should know, no?

Waylon

Z said...

Ducky, you said "Waylon are you so inert that you don't know that most realize the danger of the radical element in Islam?"

You don't, why should others?

How MANY MANY times do I have to post here that we need good Muslims to step up and march in HUGE numbers against the terror in their midst? There were some outside a recent terror arraignment...50, I think...that was a start, a really tiny start; and who knows what list they're on at their mosque or local groups for condemnation??

Stop with the Protestant hate, Ducky, you don't even sound sane now.

Anonymous said...

Pallowneus said:

"Brevity is the soul of wit."

What does that make verbosity, I wonder?

Does anyone know the scientific name for the inability to stop continuing pointless, fruitless argumentation?

Ducky's here said...

Waylon, what I acknowledge is this ... if you have been paying attention, there is a revolt in Iran against the Supreme Council.

Once more you have an example, which you choose to ignore, that the Muslim world is no more monolithic than the Christian world.

Ducky's here said...

oh, z, you seem to be totally unaware of what's going on in Iran also.

Now when are you going to denounce Pat Robertson. Deal with the devil in your own midst.

Z said...

Anonymous, this is my blog; when you start your own, please remind your readers to keep the conversations down, okay?

thanks so much

Z said...

Ducky, that students are fighting the regime in Iraq means WHAT?
Over here there are good Muslims, too.

When they start to revolt, I'll be listening very closely and maybe even feel some happy relief for America.

Faith said...

Pat Robertson being equated to Al Qaeda? What?

JINGOIST said...

Voodoo is evil, that's all there is to it.

Z said...

Jingoist comes and says a few words and he's right.
AMEN, Jingo. And who'd wish evil on ANYBODY?

Elmers Brother said...

Now when are you going to denounce Pat Robertson. Deal with the devil in your own midst.

as soon as you denounce Mao and Stalin and the other communist homocidal maniacs duhkkky

Faith said...

Come ON. There is no comparison between Pat Robertson and fundamental Islam or Mao and Stalin and other "homicidal maniacs"! Who has Pat Robertson threatened? The very worst that can be said about him is that he offends some people's idea of propriety.

beamish said...

Oh I see, Beamish, people should donate and then have no way to deliver the relief.

Perhaps your problem is one of brainpower, Ducky. You've got the calculation of a a lightswitch, stuck in binary one-or-the-other-but-not-both mode.

Take it slow. Air traffic control is a legitimate function of government. Collection and distribution of charity is a legitimate function of non-government private entities and organizations.

We'll work on getting those crayon stains off of your teeth next.

Hear the sound? it's your cornermen yelling "Stay down".

See this post? It's me in the ring waiting for you to lace up some gloves.

psi bond said...

Opening one's eyes, one sees that rightwing ideologues are poised to exploit the most remotely related things to try to advance their beliefs.

beamish: Political in tragedy much?

Tragedy in orthodoxy much?

There is nothing "remotely related" to exploit the fact that private and religious organizations are getting assistance to the Haitians faster than governments are. It is what it is.

It is the cherished belief of you and many rightwingers. It exploits the fact that one man may be able to travel faster than an army. But a missionary with a hammer (like the one who vainly tried to rescue Jacqueline), even if there first, is not effective when more sophisticated equipment and well-trained rescue personnel are what is really needed to save lives.

They're feeding people while governments are voting on how and how much. It's right-wing only in the belief that charity should not be a function of government.

Emergency international aid is a legitimate function of governments. Private charities without relevant expertise cannot re-open airports, repair ports, and airdrop vital supplies nearly as fast as governments that dispatch by executive order, not the consent of Congress, vast manpower from the armed services and financing that is immediately available large-scale. And it is proper for governments, not charities, to protect aid recipients from being robbed of the aid they receive.

Moreover, no charity organization can instantly pledge $100 million to providing aid to Haiti, as did the U.S. government without delay.

psi bond said...

Z: Psi Bond, you show a lack of having read and digested the thread when you say things like the following quoted comment of yours.

"We should not treat the terrible earthquake in Haiti as a crisis not to be passed up for reinforcing the traditional distrust in government solutions that is central to devout U.S. rightwingers. To dig itself out, Haiti will need a lot of Haitian government programs in partnership with foreign governments. That is, assuming those on the right here who believe it is useless to aid Haiti do not prevail."


Z, you show a knack for evasively misreading what I write. Not a way to contribute to a rational discussion. WHOA.

What I wrote is directly drawn from posters' statements.

Completely ignoring input, twisting words.. Not a way to win an argument. But, typical for you. "useless to aid Haiti?" WOW.

Can you honestly say, Z, there has been no input here suggesting that government should stay out of helping victims of disasters?

Can you honestly say no one on this blog has said it is useless to aid Haiti? No poster here said, their alleged inferiority “proves day after day, year after year and decade after decade that they are utterly incapable of dealing with the hardships of life.” HAH! (Now you’ve got me mimicking your hysterical posturing!)

Your best answer to my questions, Z, is silence. That would be typical for you.

In fact, a poll of O’Reilly’s mostly conservative audience found that the majority of them would not donate to Haiti.

Faith said...

Psalms 31:18: Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

Proverbs 26:4: Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Faith said...

In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed.... No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people....

----Noah Webster

Voodoo sure does nothing for anyonel

psi bond said...

1:25:1: Proudly and contemptuously the self-righteous ones proclaim that he who dissents is a liar.

1:25:2: Answer not an honest question according to your true thoughts lest you reveal your folly.

psi bond said...

Z: oh, psi bond... please remind me of any time I've talked up Pat Roberton's statements.

As a matter of fact, you have been conspicuously guarded, Z, about your reaction to his notorious defamatory statement, in which he slandered the Haitian people at the moment of their greatest distress.

What is your humble view of Robertson’s statement, Z?

Z said...

I think "a pact with the devil" was not consciously made as Robertson suggests.
I think he has his beliefs and he's entitled to them and ought to keep them to himself, personally...that's all.

psi bond said...

Z: I think "a pact with the devil" was not consciously made as Robertson suggests.
I think he has his beliefs and he's entitled to them and ought to keep them to himself, personally...that's all
.

Thank you, Z, for this reserved albeit frank reply to one of my questions. I think you should not have kept to yourself your disapproval of Robertson’s hurtful statement, even though it dissented from the strong opinions of some other posters here.

The theory that Haiti is a nation built on a pact with the devil has circulated on a number of websites, each tracing back to an apocryphal tale of Haitian voodoo priests sacrificing a pig and drinking its blood in 1791 in order to secure Satan's aid in expelling the French occupation. In return, the priests are said to have promised Haiti to Satan for the next 200 years. The French were soon beat back, and in 1804, Haiti became an independent nation. But even if you believe the story (something many historians doubt), Satan's lease on the tiny island nation should have expired in 1991.
-- Time.com

Z said...

My aren't you smug.

goodnight...it's hardly worth commenting to you.

Faith said...

How true, Z, I'm sorry I posted anything at all in relation to him.

psi bond said...

Z: My aren't you smug.

Oy, again with the ad hominem attack.

It seems you can hardly get by without them.

psi bond said...

No matter what religion you are, whether you're a Catholic, whether you're voodoo, whether you're Baptist or so on, so on, and so on---we all pray. We all pray.

-- Gail Henke

Linda said...

Isn't it amazing all the rancor that arises when either religion or politics are discussed?

Anonymous said...

I agree with Linda's last post. It is, indeed, amazing. It's also depressing that a Sunday topic devoted to faith should give rise to so much bitterness and arrogance.

Not what Jesus had in mind -- of that I'm positive.



~ FreeThinke

Z said...

Yes, Linda..

And well put, FT...

psi bond said...

Linda: Isn't it amazing all the rancor that arises when either religion or politics are discussed?

It is hardly amazing. Historically, in all eras, politics has bred animosity and enmity. And religion began to inspire animosity with the first breakaway from orthodox faith, for, as Benjamin Franklin, back in 1751, observed, “Talking about religion is unchaining a tiger; the beast let loose may worry his deliverer.”

Sadly, it is easier for many Christians to champion tolerance during the end-of-year holiday season than all year round.

psi bond said...

The advanced stage of arrogance and bitterness infesting Pat Robertson’s judgmental opinion of Haiti seems to drive the folks believing he did little or nothing wrong by speaking it out loud.

Just saying.

Elmers Brother said...

Come ON. There is no comparison between Pat Robertson and fundamental Islam or Mao and Stalin and other "homicidal maniacs"! Who has Pat Robertson threatened? The very worst that can be said about him is that he offends some people's idea of propriety.

this is my point to duhkkky. it was an absurdity to illustrate an absurdity.

Faith said...

OK, Elbro, sorry if I misread you. I couldn't really believe that's what you meant but I guess I'm getting hypersensitive about all this since I've defended Robertson.

Elmers Brother said...

Pat Robertson was a straw man duhkkky brought up. He thinks Protestants follow Robertson and Hinn around like sheep.

Most of us could care less.

I think they're both charlatans who make God out to be a cosmic bell hop.

Faith said...

Oh drat, I really don't want to get too deeply into this, Elbro, but while I'm no follower of Pat Robertson I do know that there's no comparison between him and the devil-driven Benny Hinn. Hinn might as well be a voodoo practitioner himself. Robertson on the other hand is just a little too far out in charismania land for me, though I think his Christian credentials are basically OK and I'll still defend what he said about Haiti, even if he should be chided for bad timing -- no worse than that in my opinion. Hinn would never say anything so gauche -- he's just out to make money and he might as well be a voodoo shaman himself. I cannot compare the two.

psi bond said...

Militant radical Muslims arrogantly declare that the disemboweling and slaughtering of men, women, and children in the marketplace by a bomb blast is God’s will since they are the wrong kind of Muslim.

Overzealous fundamentalist Christian ministers and freelance evangelicals arrogantly declare God willed that hapless men, women, and children be killed, crippled, and made homeless in the hundreds of thousands in Haiti since they must be a misguided species of Christian.

As it does with al Qaeda, it gives God a bad name.

It is not what Jesus had in mind when he said, “Love your neighbor”---of that one can be certain.

Elmers Brother said...

what I was attempting to suggest with Mao and Stalin to duhkkky was that he can't attribute what Pat Robertson said to Z because:

1. Robertson speaks for himself
2. Z never mentioned him at all
3. She's not a follower of Robertson, so any attempt on duhkkky's part to link the two is just either a 'guilty by association' (what association we still havent' figured out)
4. Robertson's entitled to his opinion
5. duhkkky used a strawman

it's absurd to associate Z with Robertson at all

duhkkky, though a lefist has nothing to do with Stalin or Mao and asking him to repudiate or apologize for them is an analogy of his effort here

I don' care what Robertson thinks but duhkkky's attempt at painting all evangelicals with Robetson's remarks is ridiculous and simply a way for duhkkky to marginalize

Faith said...

I certainly agree with all that. Sorry it went over my head first time around.

Elmers Brother said...

no need to be sorry...I need to communicate better

psi bond said...

Haiti is surely a Job among nations….Today, nearly all Haitians are Christians. About half also practice voodoo, an adaptation of their African ancestors’ native religion.

In his narrow, malicious way, Robertson is making a First Commandment argument; when the God of Israel thunders from his mountaintop that “you shall have no other gods before me,” he means it. This God rains down disaster---floods and so forth---on those who disobey.

But Robertson’s is a fundamentalist view. It’s so unkind and self-righteous---and deaf, dumb, and blind to centuries of theological discourse on suffering by thinkers from Augustine to Elie Wiesel---that one might easily call it backward. Every Western religious tradition teaches that mortals have no way of counting or weighing another’s sin. “If that happened to the Haitians because they’re so sinful, then why hasn’t it happened to him?” retorts Bart Ehrman, a Bible scholar at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
[Some mortals who fancy themselves mind-0f-God readers cite “fullness of time” here, explaining that if your sinful homeland hasn’t been hit, it’s only because it hasn’t been hit yet; therefore, let us repent all together, in locksquat with prayer mats unrolled!]

“I think,” adds Rabbi Harold Kushner, author of Why Bad Things Happen to Good People, “that it’s supreme hubris to think you can read God’s mind.”

-- Lisa Miller, religion editor, Newsweek, January 25, 2010, p. 14